The Light of the Trees

[Beren3000]

This might sound stupid, but Yavanna said she could revive the Trees from the light contained within the Sil's. But that light was also contained in the leaves that the Maiar who are the Sun and the Moon (sorry, forgot their names) carry each day; and supposedly they pass through Valinor after each cycle. So why couldn't she revive the Trees from THAT?

[CrazySquirrel]

WERE they LEAVES? I thought the sun and the moon appered AFTER the Noldor came to ME and AFTER the trees died?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

This might sound stupid, but Yavanna said she could revive the Trees from the light contained within the Sil's. But that light was also contained in the leaves that the Maiar who are the Sun and the Moon (sorry, forgot their names) carry each day; and supposedly they pass through Valinor after each cycle. So why couldn't she revive the Trees from THAT?

She said:

The light of the Trees has passed away, and now lives only in the Silmarils of Fëanor. Foresighted was he! Even for those who are mightiest under Ilúvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Eä I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded.'"

And it is said that both trees died after she sang the song (and the flower from Telperion and fruit from Laurelin grew). I think it means their roots did decay, therefore she could no longer bring them back.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

This might sound stupid, but Yavanna said she could revive the Trees from the light contained within the Sil's. But that light was also contained in the leaves that the Maiar who are the Sun and the Moon (sorry, forgot their names) carry each day; and supposedly they pass through Valinor after each cycle. So why couldn't she revive the Trees from THAT?

I gather from what Foster says in The Guide, that what was left right before their death was not enough to revive them, and therefore, Yavanna and Nienna could not heal the trees, but their last yeild was fashioned into the Moon and the Sun. Therefore, only the Silmarils would do.

[Beren3000]

First of all:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

WERE they LEAVES? I thought the sun and the moon appered AFTER the Noldor came to ME and AFTER the trees died?

S***! I need to reread the Sil. before asking other stupid questions like this one!

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I gather from what Foster says in The Guide, that what was left right before their death was not enough to revive them, and therefore, Yavanna and Nienna could not heal the trees, but their last yeild was fashioned into the Moon and the Sun. Therefore, only the Silmarils would do.

See, that's the part I don't understand...why?? why couldn't she revive them from these remaining "fruits"? Was the light of the Silm's greater than that of the actual thing?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would say because the fruits were only parting gifts, that weren't the trees 'full potential'. The Silmarils were made in the full radiance and glory of the trees.

[Findegil]

It was a question of time:
At first the Trees were hurt and then Yavanna looked at them and told that she could heal them with the Silmarils. But Feanor did not give them (or rather Morgoth stole them) thus the Valar begget Yavanna to try without them. She did it but without much hope. The result was the last flower of Teleperion (the Moon) and the last fruit of Laurelin (the Sun). But also the trees suffered from the bearing of these last givings thus they dight after it. Thus I think at the end the trees could not even be heald with the Silmarills (wich still never became available for a try).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elennár]

To add to a cob-webby topic; Anor and Ithil were created after the poison of Morgoth's spear sullied them. That's why the Sun and the Moon were inherently marred and 'second best'. The Silmarilli, however, had the light of the Trees during their noonday splendour; and were untouched by Morgoth's influence.

[Mornorngûr]

If I remember rightly, it is said in the book that when the world is broken and the Silmaril's are regained, Feanor will give them the Yavanna who will unlock them and restore the tree's to life.

[Lefty Scaevola]

That sounds like that is from the "second prohecy of Mandos" from HoME, which seems to have been discarded by JRRT.

[Mornorngûr]

Ok then well if the roots have indeed decayed and can not be restored to life, not even with the Silmaril's. Then I would say that the reason for Yavanna not being able to restore them or make their like again with Ea, is most probably similar to the reason that Melkor is diminished from putting forth his power into his evil works. Therefore when the world is broken, the Valar will regain all their power that they spent before in making Arda. They will then labour to remake it without Melkor this time, Yavanna will have all her power back and could therefore make the Tree's a second time.

[Galin]

When Christopher Tolkien refers to the Second Prophecy having 'definitively disappeared' I think he means this prophecy is no longer to come from the mouth of Mandos in any case. The context of CJRT's statement here concerns the later Valaquenta, used for the conclusion to the 1977 Silmarillion: '(...) and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended (...) it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos'

In note 7 to the Author's notes on the Commentary (Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoth's Ring), Tolkien writes that: 'The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquanted with Elvish tradition.' And Christopher Tolkien comments (note 190: "The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion": in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333, sections 31-2), the Prophecy of Mandos.'

So far at least, it looks like the myth remains (in some form one would think), but it isn't a 'Second Prophecy' from Mandos now, but rather Numenorean.

However, that all said, one might consider The Problem Of Ros for instance, a later text (1968 or later), and there Andreth is said to have a prophecy that concerns Turin -- including that his last deed within the Circles of the World will be to return and slay Ancalagon -- with the 'Last Battle' appearing to refer to the End of the Elder Days rather.

Tolkien wrote 'most of this fails' regarding the text, but that's because he realized his idea about ros was hindered by something already in print. But arguably the detail noted about Andreth can stand, so to speak, and thus could be considered at least, concerning this matter.