Question about the Vanyar...

Dúnedain · 01-18-2004, 01:26 AM

I've been thinking about them lately, especially since we are talking about the best 1v1's and stuff like that and we are always coming down to Fingolfin and Feanor or so it seems, lol. I was thinking, the Vanyar are considered the highest of the high elves, so with that being said, do you think they would totally sweep the floor with the likes of the Noldor and stuff like that? As in them being better warriors or whanot. I ask only, because in the War of Wrath some of the Vanyar were sent to Middle Earth, was that because of how powerful and noble they were? Or did they only come to support their fellow elves?

Anyway, I was just curious what some people though about it, and whether Middle Earth wouldn't have had as many troubles if the Vanyar were living in Middle Earth along with the likes of the Noldor and Teleri (Sindar)...

Lefty Scaevola · 01-18-2004, 02:11 AM

The relative highness of the Vanyar comes from traditional senority of their race, reinfored by their closeness and rapport with the Valar/Maiar. They do not have physical superiority over the the othe Caliquendi, and indeed the Tatyar/Noldor are describe as being taller on the average. Their close association with the Ainur may likely have case the spirits to grow relatively stronger than other high Elves, but we have no indication of this beyond speculation, and perhaps even contra indication that as much of their spirit went into combat power as did in the Noldor.

Artanis · 01-18-2004, 05:23 AM

Well I like to think that the Ñoldor were the hardiest and the mightiest warriors of the three kindreds of the Elves, and the best suited to make war upon Morgoth. I believe it was an advantage for Middle Earth that the exiles were Ñoldorin and not Vanyar. Though by the time of the War of Wrath the light in the eyes of the Vanyar should have made the Orcs and their like fall dead by horror.

***Earniel*** · 01-18-2004, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I was thinking, the Vanyar are considered the highest of the high elves, so with that being said, do you think they would totally sweep the floor with the likes of the Noldor and stuff like that?

I don't think so. I think the Noldor spend much more effort into weaponskills and such than the Vanyar, and were therefore mightier warriors.

But I've always imagined the Vanyar -due to their proximity to the Powers- had reached a deeper understanding/enlightment of things and their role in it, which entitled them to being considered the highest of the High Elves. I suppose I consider their strenght would have been more spiritual then physical. I imagine the Vanyar to be more endowed with wisdom and clear sight than the Teleri and Noldor.

And I always used to imagine them to shine like little lamps since they had soaked up more of the light of the Trees.

But that has nothing to do with this conversation.

Lalaith · 01-18-2004, 07:35 AM

I always thought the Vanyar were just fairer and wiser.
I can't remember anything said that they have better skills in fighting.

Falagar · 01-18-2004, 12:28 PM

I agree with most things said here. Would just like to add that the Noldor were described as having the greatest temperament.

Durin1 · 01-18-2004, 03:40 PM

Didn't the Vanyar just sit around all day writing songs and poems?

I've never understood Manwe's preference for the Vanyar.

Basically the Vanyar made no contribution to the "story" of Arda. I can't see why anyone would find them interesting. They were a bit too ready to do everything the Valar told them. From the outset they laid their fate by all going along to Aman.

I've always wandered if their lives must have be so boring since they had no inclination to explore the world and everything in it, or to seek to interact with people other than themselves (excluding the Ainur).

Just about the only thing that would be slightly interesting about them would have been their blonde hair

Personally I would have rather watched paint dry.

Dúnedain · 01-18-2004, 06:23 PM

Well we are at a crossroads here then, because of this one point. I think we can all agree that the spirit within was the strongest in the Vanyar. Now with that being said, everyone speaks of how fierce and powerful the spirit of Feanor was, and in the other thread about the 1v1's, people are saying it is because of that spirit that he is so strong. If the Vanyar have the greater spirit, or fire within, wouldn't it then make them the most powerful and stronger, in comparison to what is said in regards to Feanor and his spirit?

I guess that is what I am getting at. It was even said above "Though by the time of the War of Wrath the light in the eyes of the Vanyar should have made the Orcs and their like fall dead by horror." Now with that, on a few separate instances we are told of that same light in the eyes of great elves, such as Fingolfin and Feanor, except here with the Vanyar it would be stronger since their spirits grew while in Valinor...

Falagar · 01-18-2004, 06:50 PM

There's a difference there. The Vanyar were more "spiritual", in a closer connection with the Valar (perhaps something like Karma?

). The Noldor had more "inner fire" (desire/willpower if you want), that is agrression/temper; and then perhaps also physical power.

Captain Stern · 01-22-2004, 06:41 AM

I don't think Tolkien ever said that the Vanyar's spirits were greater...

I don't remember it ever being mentioned that the Vanyar were superior to the Noldor. All I can recall is that they were closer to the Valar than the other two. On the other hand, I can remember Morgoth deeming the Noldor greater than the Teleri and the Vanyar. And let's not forget that the mightiest of all the elves was of the Noldor (discounting Luthien of course, depending on what you wanna believe!).

Curufin · 04-17-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Basically the Vanyar made no contribution to the "story" of Arda. I can't see why anyone would find them interesting. They were a bit too ready to do everything the Valar told them. From the outset they laid their fate by all going along to Aman.

Sure they did.

Fingolfin was half-Vanyar, as was Finarfin. Finrod and Galadriel were a quarter Vanyar. Finrod loved a Vanya. The Vanyar came to Middle-earth with the Valar to cast Sauron into the void. They did their part.

Willow Oran · 04-17-2008, 11:42 AM

As breeding stock and cannon fodder...

The Dread Pirate Roberts · 04-17-2008, 11:48 AM

Curufin, is that you? Giving props to the Non-Noldor side of the family?

Curufin · 04-17-2008, 11:49 AM

I'm quite fond of Amárië.

Mornorngûr · 10-10-2010, 06:52 PM

I've always wondered about the Vanyar that went to 'The war of wrath' and if they died, would the Valar instantly respawn them in Valinor. It seems a bit harsh that they never involve themselves with any of all the events in the world outside valinor, yet they get forced to goto war where many will surely perish.

Elennár · 10-16-2010, 01:16 AM

I think the Vanyar were considered the Highest of the High Elves, so to speak, because of the sheer age of that tribe. If I remember my Silmarillion correctly, their lord Ingwë was the first elf to be awakened.
And they were the first elves to behold the light of the Trees, which means they've seen the pure, holy light of the Aldu for a longer time than any other of the Calaquendi.
Also, I think their long proximity with the Maiar and the Valar 'hallowed' them too, to an extent. If Valinor was holy because the Valar dwelt their, wouldn't the Vanyar also be affected by the same virtue of the Ainur? And in that case, wouldn't that enhance the natural powers that were given to them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mornorngûr

I've always wondered about the Vanyar that went to 'The war of wrath' and if they died, would the Valar instantly respawn them in Valinor. It seems a bit harsh that they never involve themselves with any of all the events in the world outside valinor, yet they get forced to go to a war where many will surely perish.

I should think that slain Vanyarin elves would be re-embodied fairly quickly- how long a fëa spent in the halls of Mandos depended on how naughty the elf was in life; and the Vanyar were squeaky clean.
What I find weird is, didn't the Vanyar get bored? And didn't any of them ever want to see Middle Earth again? Ever?

01-18-2004, 01:26 AM	#1
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Question about the Vanyar... I've been thinking about them lately, especially since we are talking about the best 1v1's and stuff like that and we are always coming down to Fingolfin and Feanor or so it seems, lol. I was thinking, the Vanyar are considered the highest of the high elves, so with that being said, do you think they would totally sweep the floor with the likes of the Noldor and stuff like that? As in them being better warriors or whanot. I ask only, because in the War of Wrath some of the Vanyar were sent to Middle Earth, was that because of how powerful and noble they were? Or did they only come to support their fellow elves? Anyway, I was just curious what some people though about it, and whether Middle Earth wouldn't have had as many troubles if the Vanyar were living in Middle Earth along with the likes of the Noldor and Teleri (Sindar)... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 01-18-2004 at 01:27 AM.

01-18-2004, 05:23 AM	#3
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Well I like to think that the Ñoldor were the hardiest and the mightiest warriors of the three kindreds of the Elves, and the best suited to make war upon Morgoth. I believe it was an advantage for Middle Earth that the exiles were Ñoldorin and not Vanyar. Though by the time of the War of Wrath the light in the eyes of the Vanyar should have made the Orcs and their like fall dead by horror. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-18-2004, 07:35 AM	#5
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	I always thought the Vanyar were just fairer and wiser. I can't remember anything said that they have better skills in fighting. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-18-2004, 12:28 PM	#6
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I agree with most things said here. Would just like to add that the Noldor were described as having the greatest temperament. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 01-18-2004 at 12:31 PM.

01-18-2004, 03:40 PM	#7
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	Didn't the Vanyar just sit around all day writing songs and poems? I've never understood Manwe's preference for the Vanyar. Basically the Vanyar made no contribution to the "story" of Arda. I can't see why anyone would find them interesting. They were a bit too ready to do everything the Valar told them. From the outset they laid their fate by all going along to Aman. I've always wandered if their lives must have be so boring since they had no inclination to explore the world and everything in it, or to seek to interact with people other than themselves (excluding the Ainur). Just about the only thing that would be slightly interesting about them would have been their blonde hair Personally I would have rather watched paint dry. __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

01-18-2004, 02:11 AM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	The relative highness of the Vanyar comes from traditional senority of their race, reinfored by their closeness and rapport with the Valar/Maiar. They do not have physical superiority over the the othe Caliquendi, and indeed the Tatyar/Noldor are describe as being taller on the average. Their close association with the Ainur may likely have case the spirits to grow relatively stronger than other high Elves, but we have no indication of this beyond speculation, and perhaps even contra indication that as much of their spirit went into combat power as did in the Noldor.

01-18-2004, 06:23 PM	#8
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Well we are at a crossroads here then, because of this one point. I think we can all agree that the spirit within was the strongest in the Vanyar. Now with that being said, everyone speaks of how fierce and powerful the spirit of Feanor was, and in the other thread about the 1v1's, people are saying it is because of that spirit that he is so strong. If the Vanyar have the greater spirit, or fire within, wouldn't it then make them the most powerful and stronger, in comparison to what is said in regards to Feanor and his spirit? I guess that is what I am getting at. It was even said above "Though by the time of the War of Wrath the light in the eyes of the Vanyar should have made the Orcs and their like fall dead by horror." Now with that, on a few separate instances we are told of that same light in the eyes of great elves, such as Fingolfin and Feanor, except here with the Vanyar it would be stronger since their spirits grew while in Valinor... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-18-2004, 06:50 PM	#9
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	There's a difference there. The Vanyar were more "spiritual", in a closer connection with the Valar (perhaps something like Karma? ). The Noldor had more "inner fire" (desire/willpower if you want), that is agrression/temper; and then perhaps also physical power. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-22-2004, 06:41 AM	#10
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	I don't think Tolkien ever said that the Vanyar's spirits were greater... I don't remember it ever being mentioned that the Vanyar were superior to the Noldor. All I can recall is that they were closer to the Valar than the other two. On the other hand, I can remember Morgoth deeming the Noldor greater than the Teleri and the Vanyar. And let's not forget that the mightiest of all the elves was of the Noldor (discounting Luthien of course, depending on what you wanna believe!). __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-22-2004 at 06:54 AM.

04-17-2008, 11:42 AM	#12
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	As breeding stock and cannon fodder... __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

04-17-2008, 11:48 AM	#13
The Dread Pirate Roberts Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 987	Curufin, is that you? Giving props to the Non-Noldor side of the family? __________________ ~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

04-17-2008, 11:49 AM	#14
Curufin The Ñoldóran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Mishawaka, IN Posts: 2,050	I'm quite fond of Amárië. __________________ Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian

10-10-2010, 06:52 PM	#15
Mornorngûr Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: London Posts: 26	I've always wondered about the Vanyar that went to 'The war of wrath' and if they died, would the Valar instantly respawn them in Valinor. It seems a bit harsh that they never involve themselves with any of all the events in the world outside valinor, yet they get forced to goto war where many will surely perish. __________________ ----------- Then Sauron spake and said thou trall, the price thou askest is but small.

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