Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Nurvingiel]

I was thinking about how Bilbo was the only person to willingly give up the Ring (admittedly with significant help from Gandalf), and started thinking about the various fates of other Ringbearers. This thread is also partly insipred by the question "Could the Ring be used for good?" in another thread.


A little backstory...

After the Ring was cut from Sauron's hand, Isildur was the first Ringbearer. I think various writings on Isildur indicate that though he was slowly being corrupted by the Ring, he retained some wisdom about the issue. He was seperated from the Ring when it slipped from his finger and Isildur was shot by orcs. The Ring drifted to the bottom of the Anduin to stay in obscurity for the next several hundred years. This we already know, but the important question is why did the Ring abandon Isildur?

Sauron was wandering as a bodiless spirit, and probably couldn't have reclaimed the Ring if it had been thrown through his face. It seems that the Ring wanted to bide its time until Sauron could take it back. Let's not forget that the Ring's goal was to return to its master and cover Middle-earth in a second darkness.


The sixty-thousand dollar question...

However, why not corrupt Isildur and wreak some havocy havoc in the meantime? Why waste a chance to do more evil? I think the Ring chose the safety of the river bed because it sensed the possibility of Isildur using it for good, or that, after lengthly exposure to Elrond's council, he would seek to destroy it. There's no way the Ring could have orchestrated being found by Bilbo, but perhaps he wanted to be found by Gollum or a similar person (easily corruptible). Isildur, unlike the black-hearted Sméagol, was not easily corrupted.

Thoughts?

[Valandil]

Maybe one possibility is just that Isildur had been connected to Sauron's Fall. The Ring may have hated him with Sauron's hatred, such that at the first opportunity to "escape" it would do so... ESPECIALLY if doing so would endanger Isildur.

[Nurvingiel]

Good point Valandil. In that case, the Ring seems to have a personality. Being overcome by hate to get revenge on its enemy... maybe that's part of being imbued with Sauron's malice.

Okay then, do you think it was tactically to the Ring's advantage to abandon Isildur at that point?

Maybe the Ring wanted to be found by the Orcs... except, it specifically chose the river to slip from Isildur's finger, which would make it the One Ring of stupidity if that was its goal.

[Valandil]

What kind of 'senses' might the Ring have to perceive its surroundings though? I think very limited - as far as those we're familiar with: seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting... but perhaps extraordinary in other ways: preceiving thoughts and emotions, etc.

It may not have known that it was in a river. It may not have known what a river really was. It may not have known the laws of physics at all.

Imagine yourself blind - maybe able to feel some things, perhaps to hear garbled sounds - but able to 'hear' thoughts and to know emotions and to have emotions in response. Trying to gather what you can of the world around you - but not always having the ability to do so correctly.

That's only a guess - I don't know if that's how Tolkien perceived the Ring, but it's plausible to me. I think it DID turn out to be a tactical error for the Ring to get itself lost for 2500 years (OTOH - Sauron was out of action for much of that time - and barely in action for almost all of it). However, it may not have known enough to take better action. Also - the 'unseen hand' may have been nudging the Ring, knowing what He could bring about in the next 3000 years if the Ring would abandon Isildur then (and not wishing for Isildur to become the next 'Dark Lord').

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well. But you're right, it may not have known what a river was, even if it did hear Isildur's thoughts.

Isildur: I'll escape the orcs by swimming this river invisible!
Ring: I wonder what a river and swimming are? Oh well, screw you Isildur! *bails*

Maybe there are some discussion points left.

1. Do you think Isildur would have become the next Dark Lord? I think it's just as likely he would have destroyed the Ring.

2. Was it an unseen hand, or the unimagineable difficulty of swimming while invisible that aided the Ring? (Think about swimming... in the Anduin... whilst not being able to see your arms. Yeah.)

[Pytt]

1. I don't think he would have been able to destroy the ring. When Elrond, maybe the wisest person in ME,n at least present, urged Isildur to destroy it, but he didn't. Why should he, after weilding the ring for some time, want to do it later? I don't know if he would have been strong enough to be a new dark lord. Not at the same sice as Sauron atleast.

2. I think it was the hand. I don't know if the ring had something to do with it, or it was all the hand.

[Attalus]

I definitely think that the Hand was involved. It was around that time that Gandalf told Frodo that he thought that Bilbo was meant to find it, and not by its maker. I definitely think that there was some sentience in the Ring, but concieve it to exist (the sentient part, I mean) in the Wraith World, like the Nazgul, but without the aid of the black horses or other spies to aid it. It could sense, I think, that Isildur was in danger, no doubt about its being able to sense the syate of mind of its Bearer, and perhaps sense hostile (to Isildur) spirits or souls in the vicinity. As Val said, it probably had no concept of a river, those not exisiting in the Wraith world to my knowledge, so it thought:

"Bad, mean Bearer hurt Master.
Bad, mean Bearer in danger, he flee, something chase him.
He is using Me to foil, hide from them.
Therefore, if I leave him, they may catch him and kill him, rescue Me, and return me to Master." *hits the silk*

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well...

Sorry. And I definitely agree about the perception of thought.

Actually - after I posted the last one, I had a thought which was one step further. The Ring of course was made by Sauron, and for over 1800 years, he had been its owner. Suddenly, Sauron is slain and the Ring is physically removed from him, as well as likely having the mental/emotional bond broken. What a shock that must have been to the Ring! Even if it did not inherit a hatred of Isildur from Sauron, it would likely hate him as the one who took it from its one true master.

EDIT: Cross-post... Attalus just said it so much better than I did!

[Wayfarer]

There once was a scorpion, which found itself on the edge of a gushing river, one that no scorpion could ever hope to cross. As it was pondering the situation a frog appeared, and with it, an idea. 'Frog', asked the scorpion, 'will you ferry me across these waters upon your back?' 'That would be madness,' answered the frog. 'You are a dangerous scorpion, and I a vulnerable frog. Why would I take such a risk?' 'No risk', assured the scorpion. 'If I sting you, I too will drown.' And so the frog agreed. Halfway across the river's width, the frog suddenly felt a spasm of pain. 'Why?' he cried out. 'Because,' the scorpion answered 'it is my nature to sting'.

The ring betrayed Isildur because its nature was to betray.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The ring had some loyaty to Sauron, and may have feared that Isidur would, in time, have enough skill and power to control it, and wanted to ditch him before that happened.

[Maerbenn]

I believe this passage in ‘The Disaster of the Gladden Fields’ published in Unfinished Tales is relevant:

They [the Orcs] halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men lowered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.

It seemed to Isildur that the enemy was withdrawing towards the Forest. He looked back. The red rim of the sun gleamed out from the clouds as it went down behind the mountains; night would soon be falling. He gave orders to resume the march at once, but to bend their course down towards the lower and flatter ground where the Orcs would have less advantage. Maybe he believed that after their costly repulse they would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.

But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron’s evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.

[Nurvingiel]

Yes, that is highly relevant Maerbenn And good point Attalus. Sorry I have not much of a reply to your posts.

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

The ring had some loyaty to Sauron, and may have feared that Isidur would, in time, have enough skill and power to control it, and wanted to ditch him before that happened.

If, as Wayfarer said, this is because it's the Ring's nature to betray (a distinct possibility) why did it "work" for Sam?

Simply wearing the Ring on a chain terrified the orc he met in the hallway at Cirith Ungol. That didn't really work for or against him though. At that point I think Sam would have slaughtered a single orc that stood between him and Frodo.

[Blackheart]

Bilbo wasn't the only person to give up the ring willingly. Sam returned it to Frodo after he (Frodo) made an ass of himself at Cirith Ungol...

As for the ring "sensing" it's surroundings, I don't know if that's even the right word. Certainly it has some ability to percieve, but it's highly likely that it is limited to some kind of dim perceptions on the spiritual "plane". In much the same way as the Nazgul were limited in their perceptions, perhaps.

Certainly the ring was highly attuned to that "plane", anyone without the strength to master it would eventually be consumed and made into a wraith just by wearing it.

My theory is that the ring can sense evil very readily. There is an active will behind the ring, but it isn't Saurons. It's Morgoth. The ring is tapped into the power he invested in the world, and on those occasions that it takes an action, I would say that he is a logical choice as the originator.

So when the orcs were near, the ring "called" to them, and slipped from it's bearer's hand. It may have indeed been coincidence that Isildur was swimming at the time.

[Nurvingiel]

I had forgotten about Sam ( ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so. Of course it was difficult to give it up, but it was far worse for Frodo. He was dependent on the Ring by that point. He didn't make an ass of himself by freaking out.

I agree with what you guys have said about the Ring having perception similar to the Nazgul.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I had forgotten about Sam ( ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so. Of course it was difficult to give it up, but it was far worse for Frodo. He was dependent on the Ring by that point. He didn't make an ass of himself by freaking out.

Did too!

In the movie you don't see any of that, but in the book he just takes off running and yelling whoopity doodah! Free! While poor Sam is trying to catch up.

If it had been ME I'd have beaned him in the head with a rock and told him to shut the hell up, one doesn't run around yelling things in Mordor when you're trying to be sneaky....

So I reiterate:

Did too!

[Nurvingiel]

Did not!

He would have been making an ass of himself if he had been in a market in The Shire, but I'd say he was perfectly entitled to some strange behaviour given that he had just been tortured and beaten by Orcs in the land of Mordor - a land of evil in which he had to destroy a powerful Ring that was slowly controlling his mind.

In sum, did not!

[Blackheart]

This was before the orcs captured him!

After they escaped from Shelob's Tunnel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I had forgotten about Sam ( ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so.

What about Bilbo. He bore it for about sixty years yet still gave it up out of free will. If Bilbo and Sam could, why couldn't Frodo? All were hobbits and Frodo has shown that he is resiliant by bearing a Morgul wound for how long he did. Could Frodo not give it up because he was bearing it drawing near to it's place of 'birth'?

[tolkienfan]

Wouldn't the Ring be working harder to corrupt Frodo? If Bilbo lets the Ring go, it falls on the floor. If Frodo lets the Ring go, it falls into Mount Doom.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely it would have been easier for the Ring to be borne by someone who has had it and used it near eighty years that someone who has only had it but not used it for twenty. Why not stay with Bilbo until you get to Mordor, then betray him?