Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

Butterbeer · 10-12-2005, 07:40 PM

The passing of the Grey Company

Book V, The return of the king

Running order:

1) Introduction and apology
2) Synopsis
3) The chapter in summary form:
4) some more detailed thoughts
5) Oddities and Questions

1) Introduction and apology

Well, having to bang this off pretty much off the top of me head, though i do have the book in front of me, for time's sake ... will have very little time till monday or tuesday so had better at least start this off...

will try and edit and add to it as time allows and will post any new editions as and when.

Coming next will be the muster of rohan, but one chapter at a time ... will get the muster up next week, when i have a mo'.

I will add a placeholder below this post to add additions.
apologies if this is a bit rough and ready.

feel free all to debate whatever you like regarding this chapter, but i'll try and put various mootable points in BOLD as i go along ...

2) Synopsis:

After the breaking of the fellowship, and the small stones that lead to an avalanche in the mountains when Pippin and merry enter Fangorn, the meeting of the hunters and Gandalf and the batltle of helm's deep ... the victory and scenes at Orthanc ... the subsequent discovery of the Palantir ... Gandalf has ridden off with Pippin like the wind to Minas Tirith ... following the presage of imminent war, hailed by the flying wraith(s) ....

3)The chapter in summary form:

Gandalf has ridden off like the wind to Minas tirith, taking Pippin with him on shadowfax.

The winged messenger has been felt riding aloft ... suddenly the imminent pressage of war is keenly felt ... even in the night does doom and danger arrive ... both from the close shave with the palantir and sauron's haste... and from the very air: from this point onwards there is no turning back nor time for rest ... a pivotal point is reached in the road to War: time is now precious and the game afoot 24 hours a day.

What now? the remaining fellowship ask ... the King goes now to the Muster he has ordered ...

"Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches"

Merry is sundered from the remaining fellowship somewhat cruelly from his own perspective ... they ride off making for helm's deep.

Crossing the Isen back into Rohan they are overtaken by a group of horsemen riding hard on their trial.

Aragorn's kin ride to his aid, seeking him from afar in Rohan, with Elrohir and ellodan Elrond's sons.

What summons did they heed?

Elrond's sons bring word from their father 'remember the paths of the dead'

arriving at helm's deep they sleep, all but Aragorn, who takes the Palantir, as rightful owner of the stone and wrestles the Stone from Sauron's will.

He appears in other guise ... showing the sword re-forged ... and this battle of wills in the palantir was a battle worse and more wearying than that of the hornburg.

Yet, it is invaluable and need now drives him as never before ... also it serves to worry sauron and force his hand ... ever setting doubt in his mind and fear .... fully now has the wheel turned full circle as the strategies are focused on pressing sauron and focused on distracting the eye of mordor from it's very borders...

Theoden rides off towards the Muster ... after being dismayed by strider's news that he will take the paths of the dead

Aragorn finally takes a meal and tells Logolas and Gimli the score ...

when gimli challenges the wisdom of Aragorn's actions, he is rightfully sharp and proud : "You forget to whom you speak! ... I am the Lawful master of the Stone .... i had the right .. and the strength was enough-barely."

..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"

Aragorn learns that the corsairs are sailing to assail the southlands, and therefore must go by the most direct course ....

"then lost it must be..." - Gimli

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath? (the oath they swore to Isildur to fight sauron)

Of their free will they follow Aragorn via a short stop at Dunharrow and a much distressed Eowyn.

Fey and grey under the darkening skies they ride towards the ill fated and ill named 'paths of the dead'

through the evil night-dark starless and opressive doors they enter and amongst the dead they are driven on by the will and love for aragorn.

Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest

Finally they come out and with fear running on before them the grey company followed by the dead reach the stone of erech, where Aragorn states that he will hold the oath fulfilled when the southlands are free of the enemy.

Pressing on in the dawn and riding like the wind and with rumour flying on before them and shouts of the 'King of the dead is come' they ride towards the coasts and battle...

4) Some more detailed thoughts

... coming soon

5) Oddities and Questions

... coming soon

Artanis · 10-13-2005, 03:16 AM

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it!

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

Butterbeer · 10-13-2005, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artanis

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it!

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

yeah, cheers, i'll be glad when it's finished too! *sighs*

yeah, one of the highlights to me when the Dunedain meet up with Arargorn.

Very good point actually, i had never considered it: did they give him the extra confidence and strength of will to use it? Could well be a factor: how much of a factor i am unsure.

best BB

The Gaffer · 10-14-2005, 01:13 PM

One of the intriguing aspects of this chapter is the passage through the Paths of the Dead. Two things in particular:

1) Aragorn approaching the dead Rohirrim king (can't remember his name), who had died trying to open a door to somewhere. Where?? Aragorn tells the Dead they can keep their secrets, but once they'd fulfilled their oath, maybe there would be riches for the plundering.

2) "Does he know no fear?" I believe that Aragorn's confidence fully matches his strength of will for this first time here.
- He gets the better of Sauron via the palantir!
- He summons his own people unconsciously
- He commands the Dead.

Is there not a comment in a subsequent chapter about how Legolas realised at this time what a terrifying ruler he would have become had he taken the Ring.

And we cannot over-estimate the importance of his confrontation with Sauron. It plants doubt in Sauron's mind and dramatically alters the course of events.

Gordis · 10-15-2005, 01:12 PM

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye"

Butterbeer · 10-25-2005, 05:10 PM

The Muster Of Rohan

This being the third chapter, of Book V, The return of The King, in the LOTR discussion project.

Chapter III, Book V

Chapter summary:

Now all roads were running to the east to meet the coming of War and the onset of the Shadow.

Theoden rides down out of the hills to Harrowdale: when chance allows merry rides with the king and talks to him of his home, learning too, much about the lands and mountains and folklore of the riddermark ... upon arriving at Dunharrow he finds that the muster has already been done and long ranks of tents and men and horse are ready.

Merry is lonely and opressed by the very scale and size of the Mountains .. the others have all gone ... he had been forsaken somewhat cruelly to his mind by Aragorn ... and three long slow days of riding through such stark and wild scenary is weighing on him ... he wishes in true hobbit style to shut it all out in a small cosy room by a fire ...

We are told much in terms of the Rohirrim how they and their culture is like the contryside fair, green and rolling in part and beautiful with a foundation of strength, cold and hard like the mountains and mist wreathed dales. Of their songs and northern culture, we see the effect on the Rohirrim's language, culture and ways of life.

On arriving at Dunharrow, Theoden and Eomer learn to their dismay that Arargorn had ridden by and indeed ridden the paths of the dead.

"Then our paths are sundered." said Eomer. "He is lost. We must ride without him, and our hope dwindles."

This is interesting, they have only met Arargorn some few days ago ...

yet we can see that now is indeed Arargorn's time ... the time for secrecy is past for him ... he will either find victory and his heart's desire or death and possibly torment. He has openly proclaimed his Lineage to Eomer on the plains of Rohan (one of my favourite scenes) and Anduril's heritage before the doorwards of Theoden .... in battle at helm's deep he has decried "Elendil" and friend and foe alike have seen the light of the west gleaming in battle ... further he has mastered the Palanatir and planted fear, hatred and concern into Sauron's mind....

thus we can assume by Eomer's words and by the intense feelings stirred in Eowyn that Strider,at last, the ranger of the North has truly come full into his own and being driven by need and destiny the power and presence of the heir of isuldir are now both clear to see and keenly felt by those around him ...

Theoden also notices the concern that this causes Eowyn...

We are told some of the histories of the paths of the dead and find out whom it was that Aragorn found in there by the Door, the door that is locked, and leads whither?

An errand rider from Gondor arrives and brings the fateful Red Arrow

Merry is distraught when theoden decides he will be a burdern to cavalry and will not ride to war like the rest of the fellowship, but as the muster begins on a day of shadow wherein no sunlight will ever be seen again, seemingly, a dour depressing dawn as they prepare for their doom,

"This request only did Aragorn make to me, .... that you should be armed for battle ... for my heart tells me that you will need such gear ere the end" ...

Did Aragorn forsee this? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that Eowyn would ride to battle regardless?

Upon the host leaving Edoras, hope in the form of a mysterious (at least to pippin: and MOST of the riders: how many?) rider appears ...

As they rode rumour came of war in the north, lone men riding wild brought news of foes assailing their east-borders, of orc-hosts marching in the Wold of Rohan…

…mile by mile the long road wound away …. All the lands were grey and still; and ever the shadow deepened before them, and hope waned in every heart …

Descriptive writing

we have murmuring fir woods, soft-sighing trees ... the land is very much alive, or more importantly perhaps much more alive to the Rohirrim, they appear as much shaped in part by the land as their language and songs, but also i feel Tolkien is subtely showing how they connect so much more intensely with the land than perhaps we do in the modern world.

'the mighty Starkhorn loomed up above its vast buttresses swathed in cloud; but its jagged peak, clothed in everlasting snow, gleamed far above the world, blue-shadowed upon the east, red-stained by the sunset in the west'

Not one old tolkien to miss a metaphor: we have the icy-cold blue and dark east and in the west the light ... moreover we are given the perception that this may well be read by those as see it as a premonition of a last waning sunset in the west ... or stained as in premonition of blood and doom ahead ... yet still there the golden light of the west ...

when i read these descriptions of the journey down from the hills to Dunharrow and of the pine clad walls or fast flowing rocky streams and rivers i think very much of the lake-district in England, though i suspect he was thinking further north in Europe perhaps?

Some questions

1) why was this so late, BB?

2) have you rushed this, BB?

3) What on earth did Baldor son of brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter anduril?

4) did some of the dead being about in harrowdale know the time to honour their Tryst was coming? Eowyn tells that a great host went recently into the hill as if to keep a tyrst ...
5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it?
6) Did Aragorn forsee that theoden would not take Merry to war? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that eowyn would ride to battle regardless? If so, regarding Eowyn, did he approve?
7) how did Eowyn get from saying a tearful goodbye to Theoden to standing in the line as a young armed man with a horse and gear etc and a face 'in search of death'?
8) “Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say … and so I have found myself” : how so? ... any ideas? There were many who knew that the hobbit had joined their company ... how many more suspected the slim rider?

end of part one ... the sketchy bit!

Butterbeer · 10-25-2005, 05:12 PM

coming soon....part 2 "putting some meat on bare bones"

Serenoli · 10-27-2005, 01:56 PM

Dear BB, despite extensive thinking, have not found answers for questions 1&2. Have been wondering same myself for a long while.

As for the rest, I wish you had spent a little more thought on Eowyn... still, good summary.

Quote:

3) What on earth did Baldor son of brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter anduril?

Maybe someone challenged his courage and dared him to go? A king cannot very well say, 'I'm afraid to'.

Plus, he was apparently drunk when he made the vow. And since Meduseld was but newly-built, maybe also a bit elated at his own accomplishments, thus leading him to rash boasts. I don't get the part about Anduril, having never met him, and I cannot imagine what was behind the locked door.

Quote:

6) Did Aragorn forsee that theoden would not take Merry to war? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that eowyn would ride to battle regardless? If so, regarding Eowyn, did he approve?

I think so, and that's why he requested them to provide armor and weapons for him, to indirectly hint to Theoden that he at least, felt Merry should not be left behind.
I think he also knew that Eowyn would ride to battle. His words to her are always such as to dissuade her from doing this. And I think he would not approve of her riding into battle at all, at least that's what his words indicate.

I wonder how long you'll take to actually finish this, Butterbeer?

Butterbeer · 11-04-2005, 07:56 PM

wotcha! thanks for the reply, serenoli

.. kinda ghostly quiet here ain't it?

yup questions 1 and 2 are tricky!

well, i have some additional questions to post ...prob tommorow on muster of rohan ... i guess i could flesh out some general stuff on Eowyn ... but that chapter although readable as all tolkien is, raises little for me in terms of debate...

However i have more on passing of the grey company to come ... still as regards the flow of the project, i feel it fair for the next poster to have a crack... please do not let me hold owt up ...

i'll add the questions for muster and add more for grey company soonish ...

by monday or tues at the latest.

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

Beren3000 · 11-06-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

Just peeping in. I have a lot of thoughts about Eowyn, but I can't elaborate on them now. I will post later. By the way, I'm the next poster in the project, and I'm perfectly happy to wait for a while until you put up your questions...

Beren3000 · 11-08-2005, 06:15 AM

So, here's my two cents on Eowyn:

I think Eowyn is quite representative of women in the postwar world. She has seen her male kin fight bravely while she was left at home to "take care of things". She wants a part of the glory; so for a while she nurtures dreams about winning glory in war (which she eventually does) but at the end, realises that her true "glory" would be to regain her "femininity" (sp?) and marry Faramir. (Just as the role of postwar women was to go out and work while the men fought, not to go and fight themselves) At least that's how I see it.
Eowyn could also be Tolkien's defence for women in general: women should not be marginalised or left behind. They should have an active role in the "deeds of the time".

Serenoli · 11-09-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

I more or less agree with Beren about Eowyn as a representative of post-war women. It was probably at that time, that women started becoming more independent, and Eowyn always seemd to me to symbolise that. And how, in the end, she had to make some kind of compromise between her wishes of glory, and what the rest of the world wanted her to be. She's one of my favourite characters because I seem to see a lot of myself in her... I'm from a male-dominated society, just as she is, and I often feel I'm struggling in the same way she is.

By the way, the relationship between Eowyn and Merry, is also very interesting. Everyone underestimates Merry, and would not let him go to war, and I suppose Eowyn sympathises with him and feels that he is being treated like everyone else treats her. And thats why she takes him along.

I wonder how Eowyn managed to smeak out without anyone noticing. She must have left someone behind in charge, to fulfill her duties, and she also had to borrow her clothes from someone. Elfhelm, and all his eored, at any rate knew... obvious by the way they do not comment on her.

The Gaffer · 11-10-2005, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

I think that was precisely his purpose. It provokes Sauron into attacking too soon, it empties Mordor, it draws his attention; it enables Frodo and Sam to complete the quest. Without it, the rest of the plot doesn't make sense.

Beren3000 · 11-11-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

What summons did they heed?

That's an interesting question. I think there are 2 possibilites.
1) They were alerted by the riders that Elrond sent out and learned that Aragorn rides towards Minas Tirith. (As you have noted yourself, Elladan and Elrohir are with them)

2)They were summoned by Galadriel. After all she was the one who told Aragorn that "the dead watch the road that leads to the sea".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"

I like that quote very much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath?

Again, great question! I think he more or less completely trusted the foresight of Galadriel. But also, think of it this way: you've been dead for a thousand years but your soul can find no rest and is doomed to roam the earth. Then someone comes and tells you: "help me and I'll free you from the curse" wouldn't you jump at the oppurtunity? I think that's what Aragorn had in mind.

***Rían*** · 11-11-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artanis

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it!

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

Yes, I've always liked that part too, Arty! I had forgotten it! It's one of the first times (if not the first) that we see a bit of the non-serious side of Aragorn, and peeks into his life before Frodo.

Good point about the Palantir!

Butterbeer · 11-17-2005, 05:26 PM

Questions, questions, questions ...

so, in the passing of the grey company , and the paths of the dead, why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?

Is aragorn cruel to leave merry alone and outside from what remains of the fellowship?

Could he not have ridden with gimli or legolas etc?

(now we all know tolkien had plans for Merry, but just what is Arargorn thinking?)

and what must Merry have felt like?

Quote:

..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"

Aragorn takes back his own and challenges sauron through the palantir

from the above quote is this something arargorn has perceived directly from the mental duel with sauron? .. or just his general perception?

What other guise did arargorn appear to sauron in?

what do you take this to mean? I've often wondered if this was some mental projected image or an actual disguise he wore ...?

I favour the former, i must say.

Beren3000 · 11-19-2005, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?

Good question! I think this is because the dwarves, of all races, were the most connected to the earth and thus, by extension, to material things. So anything spiritual or relating to spirits (case in point) would be alien to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Is aragorn cruel to leave merry alone and outside from what remains of the fellowship?

No! I think this shows how wise he is. He know that Merry would not be able to withstand the journey through the Paths of the Dead; he was only trying to protect him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what do you take this to mean? I've often wondered if this was some mental projected image or an actual disguise he wore ...?

I favour the former, i must say.

I definitely agree with you. Sauron showed Denethor a falsified image of his orc-armies just to drive him to despair, I don't see a reason why Aragorn shouldn't be able to do the same.

Serenoli · 11-20-2005, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?

Interesting question... Legolas, obviously was not scared of the dead, as he was an Elf, and Aragorn had the thought of the prophecy to fortify him... but I would have expected Gimli to be as brave as the other Dunedain. Frankly, then I don't know... maybe Beren is right... or maybe he just had a creepy nurse who told him stories of the Bogeyman when he was a dwarfling!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

and what must Merry have felt like?

I suppose he must have felt rather like Bilbo did in The Hobbit when the dwarves spoke lightly of him, and he went off on his adventure... rather snubbed in his pride, and maybe a little bit resentful that no one, not even his closest friends, took him seriously... and obviously also very lonely at being left alone with a bunch of strange riders...

Butterbeer · 11-22-2005, 07:58 PM

well, i think aragorn was cruel here to merry ... did he even go and speak to him and explain where they were going and why he was being left behind?

nope. (unless i am wrong)

merry has been through a lot, chased by nazgul, attacked on weathertop, by wargs in the wild, been through moria, attacked by trolls and orcs in moria, seen a balrog! , been captured by orcs ....

could not he have been taken through the paths of the dead??

why not?

Also why was gimli cruelly left at the back almost crawling on all fours at the end, with even the sons of elrond in front of him?

Might not someone have gone and helped him, picked him up and supported him?

legolas?

take his hand, talk to him?

walk behind to ward off the shades of men that were terrorising the dwarf?

My view is that here we see a less than seemly side to arargorn ... after the duel with sauron and his stepping out of the shadows of secrecy we see his pride .. he has mastered the stone and won a duel with the dark lord ... maybe it has some residual lingering unwholesome effect on him?

i think it out of character for him to be so cold, uncaring and heartless to merry and worse later for gimli so oblivously in need of aid ... no longer caring for those he leads on ...

haste may indeed drive him but at the expense of the dwarf??

is there a parallel to be drawn here with Denethor who has used the stone many times ... and also to a lesser degree saruman?

maybe arargorn won the battle but sauron still had effected his mind to some degree?

**Nurvingiel** · 11-23-2005, 12:01 AM

About Gimli and the Paths of the Dead:

I think everyone was caught up in their own fear at that point, and didn't notice how much trouble Gimli was having (though, I actually forget that particular scene).

I think Gimli would want to deal with this himself. He seemed mad at himself for being afraid when he made himself go in saying 'an Elf will go underground and a Dwarf will not' (or something).

To me, it makes much more sense that a Dwarf would be leery of the Paths of the Dead. A Dwarf, of all people, would be aware of underground dangers, and the Paths of the Dead rank very highly on that scale.

10-12-2005, 07:40 PM	#1
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	The passing of the grey Company The passing of the Grey Company Book V, The return of the king Running order: 1) Introduction and apology 2) Synopsis 3) The chapter in summary form: 4) some more detailed thoughts 5) Oddities and Questions 1) Introduction and apology Well, having to bang this off pretty much off the top of me head, though i do have the book in front of me, for time's sake ... will have very little time till monday or tuesday so had better at least start this off... will try and edit and add to it as time allows and will post any new editions as and when. Coming next will be the muster of rohan, but one chapter at a time ... will get the muster up next week, when i have a mo'. I will add a placeholder below this post to add additions. apologies if this is a bit rough and ready. feel free all to debate whatever you like regarding this chapter, but i'll try and put various mootable points in BOLD as i go along ... 2) Synopsis: After the breaking of the fellowship, and the small stones that lead to an avalanche in the mountains when Pippin and merry enter Fangorn, the meeting of the hunters and Gandalf and the batltle of helm's deep ... the victory and scenes at Orthanc ... the subsequent discovery of the Palantir ... Gandalf has ridden off with Pippin like the wind to Minas Tirith ... following the presage of imminent war, hailed by the flying wraith(s) .... 3)The chapter in summary form: Gandalf has ridden off like the wind to Minas tirith, taking Pippin with him on shadowfax. The winged messenger has been felt riding aloft ... suddenly the imminent pressage of war is keenly felt ... even in the night does doom and danger arrive ... both from the close shave with the palantir and sauron's haste... and from the very air: from this point onwards there is no turning back nor time for rest ... a pivotal point is reached in the road to War: time is now precious and the game afoot 24 hours a day. What now? the remaining fellowship ask ... the King goes now to the Muster he has ordered ... "Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches" Merry is sundered from the remaining fellowship somewhat cruelly from his own perspective ... they ride off making for helm's deep. Crossing the Isen back into Rohan they are overtaken by a group of horsemen riding hard on their trial. Aragorn's kin ride to his aid, seeking him from afar in Rohan, with Elrohir and ellodan Elrond's sons. What summons did they heed? Elrond's sons bring word from their father 'remember the paths of the dead' arriving at helm's deep they sleep, all but Aragorn, who takes the Palantir, as rightful owner of the stone and wrestles the Stone from Sauron's will. He appears in other guise ... showing the sword re-forged ... and this battle of wills in the palantir was a battle worse and more wearying than that of the hornburg. Yet, it is invaluable and need now drives him as never before ... also it serves to worry sauron and force his hand ... ever setting doubt in his mind and fear .... fully now has the wheel turned full circle as the strategies are focused on pressing sauron and focused on distracting the eye of mordor from it's very borders... Theoden rides off towards the Muster ... after being dismayed by strider's news that he will take the paths of the dead Aragorn finally takes a meal and tells Logolas and Gimli the score ... when gimli challenges the wisdom of Aragorn's actions, he is rightfully sharp and proud : "You forget to whom you speak! ... I am the Lawful master of the Stone .... i had the right .. and the strength was enough-barely." ..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him" Aragorn learns that the corsairs are sailing to assail the southlands, and therefore must go by the most direct course .... "then lost it must be..." - Gimli How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath? (the oath they swore to Isildur to fight sauron) Of their free will they follow Aragorn via a short stop at Dunharrow and a much distressed Eowyn. Fey and grey under the darkening skies they ride towards the ill fated and ill named 'paths of the dead' through the evil night-dark starless and opressive doors they enter and amongst the dead they are driven on by the will and love for aragorn. Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest Finally they come out and with fear running on before them the grey company followed by the dead reach the stone of erech, where Aragorn states that he will hold the oath fulfilled when the southlands are free of the enemy. Pressing on in the dawn and riding like the wind and with rumour flying on before them and shouts of the 'King of the dead is come' they ride towards the coasts and battle... 4) Some more detailed thoughts ... coming soon 5) Oddities and Questions ... coming soon Last edited by Butterbeer : 10-12-2005 at 07:42 PM.

10-13-2005, 03:16 AM	#2
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it! Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

10-25-2005, 05:10 PM	#6
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	the muster of rohan The Muster Of Rohan This being the third chapter, of Book V, The return of The King, in the LOTR discussion project. *Chapter III, Book V* Chapter summary: Now all roads were running to the east to meet the coming of War and the onset of the Shadow. Theoden rides down out of the hills to Harrowdale: when chance allows merry rides with the king and talks to him of his home, learning too, much about the lands and mountains and folklore of the riddermark ... upon arriving at Dunharrow he finds that the muster has already been done and long ranks of tents and men and horse are ready. Merry is lonely and opressed by the very scale and size of the Mountains .. the others have all gone ... he had been forsaken somewhat cruelly to his mind by Aragorn ... and three long slow days of riding through such stark and wild scenary is weighing on him ... he wishes in true hobbit style to shut it all out in a small cosy room by a fire ... We are told much in terms of the Rohirrim how they and their culture is like the contryside fair, green and rolling in part and beautiful with a foundation of strength, cold and hard like the mountains and mist wreathed dales. Of their songs and northern culture, we see the effect on the Rohirrim's language, culture and ways of life. On arriving at Dunharrow, Theoden and Eomer learn to their dismay that Arargorn had ridden by and indeed ridden the paths of the dead. "Then our paths are sundered." said Eomer. "He is lost. We must ride without him, and our hope dwindles." This is interesting, they have only met Arargorn some few days ago ... yet we can see that now is indeed Arargorn's time ... the time for secrecy is past for him ... he will either find victory and his heart's desire or death and possibly torment. He has openly proclaimed his Lineage to Eomer on the plains of Rohan (one of my favourite scenes) and Anduril's heritage before the doorwards of Theoden .... in battle at helm's deep he has decried "Elendil" and friend and foe alike have seen the light of the west gleaming in battle ... further he has mastered the Palanatir and planted fear, hatred and concern into Sauron's mind.... thus we can assume by Eomer's words and by the intense feelings stirred in Eowyn that Strider,at last, the ranger of the North has truly come full into his own and being driven by need and destiny the power and presence of the heir of isuldir are now both clear to see and keenly felt by those around him ... Theoden also notices the concern that this causes Eowyn... We are told some of the histories of the paths of the dead and find out whom it was that Aragorn found in there by the Door, the door that is locked, and leads whither? An errand rider from Gondor arrives and brings the fateful Red Arrow Merry is distraught when theoden decides he will be a burdern to cavalry and will not ride to war like the rest of the fellowship, but as the muster begins on a day of shadow wherein no sunlight will ever be seen again, seemingly, a dour depressing dawn as they prepare for their doom, "This request only did Aragorn make to me, .... that you should be armed for battle ... for my heart tells me that you will need such gear ere the end" ... Did Aragorn forsee this? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that Eowyn would ride to battle regardless? Upon the host leaving Edoras, hope in the form of a mysterious (at least to pippin: and MOST of the riders: how many?) rider appears ... As they rode rumour came of war in the north, lone men riding wild brought news of foes assailing their east-borders, of orc-hosts marching in the Wold of Rohan… …mile by mile the long road wound away …. All the lands were grey and still; and ever the shadow deepened before them, and hope waned in every heart … Descriptive writing we have murmuring fir woods, soft-sighing trees ... the land is very much alive, or more importantly perhaps much more alive to the Rohirrim, they appear as much shaped in part by the land as their language and songs, but also i feel Tolkien is subtely showing how they connect so much more intensely with the land than perhaps we do in the modern world. 'the mighty Starkhorn loomed up above its vast buttresses swathed in cloud; but its jagged peak, clothed in everlasting snow, gleamed far above the world, blue-shadowed upon the east, red-stained by the sunset in the west' Not one old tolkien to miss a metaphor: we have the icy-cold blue and dark east and in the west the light ... moreover we are given the perception that this may well be read by those as see it as a premonition of a last waning sunset in the west ... or stained as in premonition of blood and doom ahead ... yet still there the golden light of the west ... when i read these descriptions of the journey down from the hills to Dunharrow and of the pine clad walls or fast flowing rocky streams and rivers i think very much of the lake-district in England, though i suspect he was thinking further north in Europe perhaps? Some questions 1) why was this so late, BB? 2) have you rushed this, BB? 3) What on earth did Baldor son of brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter anduril? 4) did some of the dead being about in harrowdale know the time to honour their Tryst was coming? Eowyn tells that a great host went recently into the hill as if to keep a tyrst ... 5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it? 6) Did Aragorn forsee that theoden would not take Merry to war? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that eowyn would ride to battle regardless? If so, regarding Eowyn, did he approve? 7) how did Eowyn get from saying a tearful goodbye to Theoden to standing in the line as a young armed man with a horse and gear etc and a face 'in search of death'? 8) “Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say … and so I have found myself” : how so? ... any ideas? There were many who knew that the hobbit had joined their company ... how many more suspected the slim rider? end of part one ... the sketchy bit! Last edited by Butterbeer : 10-25-2005 at 05:13 PM.

11-22-2005, 07:58 PM	#19
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	well, i think aragorn was cruel here to merry ... did he even go and speak to him and explain where they were going and why he was being left behind? nope. (unless i am wrong) merry has been through a lot, chased by nazgul, attacked on weathertop, by wargs in the wild, been through moria, attacked by trolls and orcs in moria, seen a balrog! , been captured by orcs .... could not he have been taken through the paths of the dead?? why not? Also why was gimli cruelly left at the back almost crawling on all fours at the end, with even the sons of elrond in front of him? Might not someone have gone and helped him, picked him up and supported him? legolas? take his hand, talk to him? walk behind to ward off the shades of men that were terrorising the dwarf? My view is that here we see a less than seemly side to arargorn ... after the duel with sauron and his stepping out of the shadows of secrecy we see his pride .. he has mastered the stone and won a duel with the dark lord ... maybe it has some residual lingering unwholesome effect on him? i think it out of character for him to be so cold, uncaring and heartless to merry and worse later for gimli so oblivously in need of aid ... no longer caring for those he leads on ... haste may indeed drive him but at the expense of the dwarf?? is there a parallel to be drawn here with Denethor who has used the stone many times ... and also to a lesser degree saruman? maybe arargorn won the battle but sauron still had effected his mind to some degree? Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-22-2005 at 08:00 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Perhaps, oh, um, BEER?!???!!	Fenir_LacDanan	General Messages	63	01-21-2008 12:37 AM
The Lord of the Rings discussion project	azalea	LOTR Discussion Project	460	01-20-2008 11:35 AM
passing through rohan	gimli7410	Lord of the Rings Books	8	04-21-2003 02:28 PM

10-14-2005, 01:13 PM	#4
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	One of the intriguing aspects of this chapter is the passage through the Paths of the Dead. Two things in particular: 1) Aragorn approaching the dead Rohirrim king (can't remember his name), who had died trying to open a door to somewhere. Where?? Aragorn tells the Dead they can keep their secrets, but once they'd fulfilled their oath, maybe there would be riches for the plundering. 2) "Does he know no fear?" I believe that Aragorn's confidence fully matches his strength of will for this first time here. - He gets the better of Sauron via the palantir! - He summons his own people unconsciously - He commands the Dead. Is there not a comment in a subsequent chapter about how Legolas realised at this time what a terrifying ruler he would have become had he taken the Ring. And we cannot over-estimate the importance of his confrontation with Sauron. It plants doubt in Sauron's mind and dramatically alters the course of events.

10-15-2005, 01:12 PM	#5
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring? "We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye"

10-25-2005, 05:12 PM	#7
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	coming soon....part 2 "putting some meat on bare bones"

11-04-2005, 07:56 PM	#9
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	wotcha! thanks for the reply, serenoli .. kinda ghostly quiet here ain't it? yup questions 1 and 2 are tricky! well, i have some additional questions to post ...prob tommorow on muster of rohan ... i guess i could flesh out some general stuff on Eowyn ... but that chapter although readable as all tolkien is, raises little for me in terms of debate... However i have more on passing of the grey company to come ... still as regards the flow of the project, i feel it fair for the next poster to have a crack... please do not let me hold owt up ... i'll add the questions for muster and add more for grey company soonish ... by monday or tues at the latest. what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

11-08-2005, 06:15 AM	#11
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	So, here's my two cents on Eowyn: I think Eowyn is quite representative of women in the postwar world. She has seen her male kin fight bravely while she was left at home to "take care of things". She wants a part of the glory; so for a while she nurtures dreams about winning glory in war (which she eventually does) but at the end, realises that her true "glory" would be to regain her "femininity" (sp?) and marry Faramir. (Just as the role of postwar women was to go out and work while the men fought, not to go and fight themselves) At least that's how I see it. Eowyn could also be Tolkien's defence for women in general: women should not be marginalised or left behind. They should have an active role in the "deeds of the time".