Israeli Army says "Do NOT roll a D20 to make a save vs. gunfire!"

MrBishop · 12-13-2006, 02:07 PM

Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a low security clearance
By Hanan Greenberg

Published: 02.28.05, 14:17

Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.

“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says.

Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status.

So if you like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist.

Dungeons and Dragons (also known as D&D) has been a popular roleplaying game for decades and is based on a fantasy world.

One player assumes the role of “Dungeon Master,” which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others select from a large selection of characters that includes warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...052074,00.html

captain carrot · 12-14-2006, 05:57 AM

this is news or comment, not rpg Bish.

Interesting article ..you can see a smidgin of a point ...but it's completely OTT ..and reeks of the desire to socially conform a whole society to a militarism that, whilst understandable, is not good imho.

***Tessar*** · 12-14-2006, 12:05 PM

Quite true. Moved to general messages.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-14-2006, 06:05 PM

That policy is... utterly ridiculous. There are so many things wrong with it. The stupidity burns. There isn't even a semblance of a point.

1. There is no correlation between being easily influenced and playing D&D.
2. If you wanted to find out if there was a connection, you'd have to isolate other social factors like upbringing, education, and who knows what else.
3. It is far more logical to assume that an 18-year-old has a firm grasp on what is fantasy and what is reality.

Somewhere in the Israeli army is a brasshat who's a complete moron.

captain carrot · 12-14-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That policy is... utterly ridiculous.

'ere Nurv de la "Vice" lord ... if me an Tessar agree, it's officially indisputable.

it DOES belong in GM

....

you know how nice it is not to get accused and bashed on any and every post?

Goodstuff!

.............

anyway, back on topic - yeah, it's carzy and in a sinister way, ...er, sinsister-leaning ...

but, i contend, in isreal's situation ... there is a point there ... but the really interesting question is about what that actually reveals rather then ther D&D stuff...

...anyway, you good Nurv?

xx

Lotesse · 12-14-2006, 06:31 PM

I don't understand what the problem is, I mean D & D is an excellent way to fine-hone strategic fighting skilss. It's like the same kind of mental excersice for thinking in a great war-minded strategic way as is playing Chess. You'd think the Army would be encouraging the soldiers to play a little D&D once in a while; it's an excersice to strengthen mental acuity like that. People are weird, man. And yeah, you'd have to be a real yutz to confuse role-playing games with reality, for chrissake.

captain carrot · 12-14-2006, 06:42 PM

well, true,

but when the S*i* is very real, in blood and limbs and very intense, you can get VERY "real"

perhaps you understand this, from personal experience, as I ...

but ...

taken from an objective distance - what this really seems to be saying is the ever increasingly Militarisation of a society, not unlike, ironically, the Nazis ...

now, i say that only as an artistic impression as it were ..if i was to hold up an iconic mirror to this issue and draw what i saw ... that would be my take.

Odd, but frighteningly real ... but wrong?

all depends where you are standing, doesn't it?

(and of course where ya left ye staff!

)

Lotesse · 12-14-2006, 06:52 PM

How come every time anybody ever takes issue with how things might be going wrong in a terrible way, always with the comparisons to the damn Nazis! Ta hell with the Nazis, man; there's a ton of other evil empires from the past we can use as comparisons, too. Like, I dunno, the Mongols? or, whatever. Everyone knows the Nazis were evil bastards, but man it gets so old always seeing them and stupid Hitler used as the ultimate paragons of evil. I guess for the 20th century they sure made their mark that way, but so have all kinds of other so-called evil empires. There's Quaddafi, there's Al Quaeda, there's Idi Amin, there's Pinochet, tons of other examples. well anyway. I think the Israelis would be pretty pissed off to be compared to Nazis!

Heh. I guess that was the point, though, huh? The irony, the irony...

hectorberlioz · 12-14-2006, 06:54 PM

Because Nazis were so evil...they're the perfect pinata

, deservedly so.

Lotesse · 12-14-2006, 07:03 PM

Yeah, obviously, no argument there, but I'm just sayin', too bad we can't be more aware of the other evil empires still operating their particular stripe of evil, the ones who haven't fallen yet. I think if we all knew more about the present-day still-in-operation bad guys, we'd be more motivated as a whole to strike them down before they got around to mass-murdering millions like the Nazis succeeded in doing. I guess I'm fairly idealistic, but still, you know knowledge is power, right?

Stupid Nazis.

Oh - I thought of another evil bunch - the Sudanese! And those whadda ya call 'em, Tutsies? The guys who to this day mercilessly and seemingly without restraint continue to murder and wreak genocide upon the tribe they share land with, what's the name of that tribe - someone help me out here - who.. ah, BAH! I wish I had a better modern-history education. The Hutus? Is that them? Tuitsies still continue to hack hundreds of thousands of Hutus to death.

hectorberlioz · 12-14-2006, 07:07 PM

I know, it's horrid. But I think it's either too close to home for some people, or they don't know about it. It's the classic case of when someone important dies, one of the first thoughts for some people is "Oh, he was still alive?"

captain carrot · 12-14-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Heh. I guess that was the point, though, huh? The irony, the irony...

was rather ...

***HOBBIT*** · 12-14-2006, 09:11 PM

If I recall Hotel Rwanda correctly, it was the Hutus who were the evil ones killing the Tutsies. They only did this after the tutsies being the elite oppresive ruling class for so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Yeah, obviously, no argument there, but I'm just sayin', too bad we can't be more aware of the other evil empires still operating their particular stripe of evil, the ones who haven't fallen yet. I think if we all knew more about the present-day still-in-operation bad guys, we'd be more motivated as a whole to strike them down before they got around to mass-murdering millions like the Nazis succeeded in doing. I guess I'm fairly idealistic, but still, you know knowledge is power, right?

Stupid Nazis.

Oh - I thought of another evil bunch - the Sudanese! And those whadda ya call 'em, Tutsies? The guys who to this day mercilessly and seemingly without restraint continue to murder and wreak genocide upon the tribe they share land with, what's the name of that tribe - someone help me out here - who.. ah, BAH! I wish I had a better modern-history education. The Hutus? Is that them? Tuitsies still continue to hack hundreds of thousands of Hutus to death.

***Rían*** · 12-14-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Because Nazis were so evil...they're the perfect pinata

, deservedly so.

"perfect pinata" -

Well, in this world of geography- and history-impaired people, you can't assume people will know those other regimes. The Nazis are just plain handy to use as an example (at least we got some good out of them!)

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 12-14-2006, 10:33 PM

I wonder if Hitler ever played D&D?

Speaking of genocide. Darfur. There you go. 'Nother example. Not that I'll go about using it. People just look at ya weird then wonder where the heck it is. Use the Nazis. The masses understand. Unfortunately this means the dumb are being catered (sp?) to. Now, does it make me dumb if I'm not sure how to spell catered? No, I'm simply a victim of the school systems catering to my classmates who have a rather low intellect. I'm no Hawking, but I'm not stupid either. There see, I could've said Einstein, Tesse...but I went with Hawking. I bet he'd enjoy a nice game of D&D. Does that make him militarily unsound?

Also, I didn't realize that Israelly teens enjoyed D&D. I assumed it was an American thing. Not that other nations can't play it, it just surprised me. Does the US military feel the same way?

Lotesse · 12-14-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

If I recall Hotel Rwanda correctly, it was the Hutus who were the evil ones killing the Tutsies. They only did this after the tutsies being the elite oppresive ruling class for so long.

Yes! That's right, that's right, I had the two reversed. I saw that movie; it was good inasmuch as it told the story of what's going on in that part of the world right now. Wretched, horrible stuff.

***Rían*** · 12-15-2006, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I wonder if Hitler ever played D&D?

LOL!

Lief Erikson · 12-15-2006, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Also, I didn't realize that Israelly teens enjoyed D&D. I assumed it was an American thing. Not that other nations can't play it, it just surprised me. Does the US military feel the same way?

I don't know about their views about fantasy games, but they certainly don't have any problem with computer games in general. They launched their own soldier computer game that offers a great deal of information about war and life as a soldier. It's a first-person shooter with a number of different missions, you know, but developed by the army. Since fantasy games are often kind of like that, I doubt that the American military would be very condemning of them.

The Gaffer · 12-15-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I wonder if Hitler ever played D&D?

No, but I understand that Stalin only made it to 7th level Mage, so went down the salt mines and slaughtered a couple of million.

You wonder why the Yalta conference went on for so long? Churchill kept insisting on "just one more level", Stalin's mage got turned into green slime and an Iron Curtain descended across Europe...

Hey, I wouldn't complain. If you are an Israeli and get drafted, you now know what to put under Hobbies in your enrolment form.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-15-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Because Nazis were so evil...they're the perfect pinata, deservedly so.

You mean... you think of them as something bright and cheerful, full of candy to give to little children and bring them joy? How could you!

I lifted that from Bester's lines in Babylon 5 "Dust to Dust".

12-13-2006, 02:07 PM	#1
MrBishop Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 118	Israeli Army says "Do NOT roll a D20 to make a save vs. gunfire!" Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a low security clearance By Hanan Greenberg Published: 02.28.05, 14:17 Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance. “They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says. Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status. So if you like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist. Dungeons and Dragons (also known as D&D) has been a popular roleplaying game for decades and is based on a fantasy world. One player assumes the role of “Dungeon Master,” which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others select from a large selection of characters that includes warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...052074,00.html __________________ RPG gamers talk and podcast Chucky and Larry Blog

12-14-2006, 06:31 PM	#6
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	I don't understand what the problem is, I mean D & D is an excellent way to fine-hone strategic fighting skilss. It's like the same kind of mental excersice for thinking in a great war-minded strategic way as is playing Chess. You'd think the Army would be encouraging the soldiers to play a little D&D once in a while; it's an excersice to strengthen mental acuity like that. People are weird, man. And yeah, you'd have to be a real yutz to confuse role-playing games with reality, for chrissake. __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

12-14-2006, 06:52 PM	#8
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	How come every time anybody ever takes issue with how things might be going wrong in a terrible way, always with the comparisons to the damn Nazis! Ta hell with the Nazis, man; there's a ton of other evil empires from the past we can use as comparisons, too. Like, I dunno, the Mongols? or, whatever. Everyone knows the Nazis were evil bastards, but man it gets so old always seeing them and stupid Hitler used as the ultimate paragons of evil. I guess for the 20th century they sure made their mark that way, but so have all kinds of other so-called evil empires. There's Quaddafi, there's Al Quaeda, there's Idi Amin, there's Pinochet, tons of other examples. well anyway. I think the Israelis would be pretty pissed off to be compared to Nazis! Heh. I guess that was the point, though, huh? The irony, the irony... __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

12-14-2006, 06:54 PM	#9
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Because Nazis were so evil...they're the perfect pinata, deservedly so. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-14-2006, 07:03 PM	#10
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	Yeah, obviously, no argument there, but I'm just sayin', too bad we can't be more aware of the other evil empires still operating their particular stripe of evil, the ones who haven't fallen yet. I think if we all knew more about the present-day still-in-operation bad guys, we'd be more motivated as a whole to strike them down before they got around to mass-murdering millions like the Nazis succeeded in doing. I guess I'm fairly idealistic, but still, you know knowledge is power, right? Stupid Nazis. Oh - I thought of another evil bunch - the Sudanese! And those whadda ya call 'em, Tutsies? The guys who to this day mercilessly and seemingly without restraint continue to murder and wreak genocide upon the tribe they share land with, what's the name of that tribe - someone help me out here - who.. ah, BAH! I wish I had a better modern-history education. The Hutus? Is that them? Tuitsies still continue to hack hundreds of thousands of Hutus to death. __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

12-14-2006, 05:57 AM	#2
captain carrot Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 138	this is news or comment, not rpg Bish. Interesting article ..you can see a smidgin of a point ...but it's completely OTT ..and reeks of the desire to socially conform a whole society to a militarism that, whilst understandable, is not good imho.

12-14-2006, 12:05 PM	#3
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Quite true. Moved to general messages.

12-14-2006, 06:42 PM	#7
captain carrot Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 138	well, true, but when the Si is very real, in blood and limbs and very intense, you can get VERY "real" perhaps you understand this, from personal experience, as I ... but ... taken from an objective distance - what this really seems to be saying is the ever increasingly Militarisation of a society, not unlike, ironically, the Nazis ... now, i say that only as an artistic impression as it were ..if i was to hold up an iconic mirror to this issue and draw what i saw ... that would be my take. Odd, but frighteningly real ... *but wrong?* all depends where you are standing, doesn't it? (and of course where ya left ye staff! )

12-14-2006, 07:07 PM	#11
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	I know, it's horrid. But I think it's either too close to home for some people, or they don't know about it. It's the classic case of when someone important dies, one of the first thoughts for some people is "Oh, he was still alive?" __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-14-2006, 10:33 PM	#15
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	I wonder if Hitler ever played D&D? Speaking of genocide. Darfur. There you go. 'Nother example. Not that I'll go about using it. People just look at ya weird then wonder where the heck it is. Use the Nazis. The masses understand. Unfortunately this means the dumb are being catered (sp?) to. Now, does it make me dumb if I'm not sure how to spell catered? No, I'm simply a victim of the school systems catering to my classmates who have a rather low intellect. I'm no Hawking, but I'm not stupid either. There see, I could've said Einstein, Tesse...but I went with Hawking. I bet he'd enjoy a nice game of D&D. Does that make him militarily unsound? Also, I didn't realize that Israelly teens enjoyed D&D. I assumed it was an American thing. Not that other nations can't play it, it just surprised me. Does the US military feel the same way? __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope Last edited by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane : 12-14-2006 at 10:35 PM.