Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?

[Landroval]

But still, I believe, hobbits were more resistant to temptation than Men, Elves and Maiar.

Yes; apparently, (at least) Frodo had the exact amount of power required:

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision.

Why a Morgul wound brings about "more elvish" outlook is a mystery. There was some hint of translucency about the hobbit

Even the elves 'fade', due to the marring of Melkor and the consumation of their hroa by their fea.

Originally Posted by Aelfwine's preamble, Laws and customs of the eldar, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI

As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.

The letter is about a creature (Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadriel) trying to withhold the Ring from Sauron in a direct confrontation. It is supposed that the person in question is wielding the One. Would he be able to beat Sauron?

Gordis, though you are correct in your clarification, you still owe us a proof that should Frodo master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron.

Why would you want the nazgul to be more suspicious?

I doubt that at least the three great lords of Numenorean race didn't know who Sauron was; after all, at this time the numenoreans and Sauron were competitors in the race for middle-earth

He was universally trusted

No; in Lindon, the opposite was the case; and there were some, "few", of the other elves that heeded to the warnings about him.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Even the elves 'fade', due to the marring of Melkor and the consumation of their hroa by their fea.

So you think Frodo started to resemble a half-faded elf ?

Originally Posted by Landroval

Gordis, though you are correct in your clarification, you still owe us a proof that should Frodo master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron.

I really give up: both of us (and half of the Moot) now know the accursed L #246 by heart. It says "Sauron wouldn't fear the Ring..". "Only one of equal stature (a maia, that is) could beat him in direct confrontation" "Of the Man no one ... and so on... bla bla bla". It has been quoted again and again in this very thread. What else do you want?

I doubt that at least the three great lords of Numenorean race didn't know who Sauron was; after all, at this time the numenoreans and Sauron were competitors in the race for middle-earth

Oh they would know ABOUT him all right, but hardly they would be able to RECOGNISE him in disguise. You think Celebrimbor didn't know about Sauron? But he failed to recognise him, even though the guy truthfully told him that he used to be a Maia of Aule. As I said, with Men, he could have passed for anybody, including Gil-Galad himself, or Elrond or what's not.

No; in Lindon, the opposite was the case; and there were some, "few", of the other elves that heeded to the warnings about him.

Note, Sauron has never been in Lindon, so the Elves there only heard tales of Annatar. In his actual presence, ALL of the Mirdain DID believe him. Galadriel was the only one who met him personally and didn't believe him, and even she had nothing definite against him. I think, as with Saruman's persuasive voice, Annatar's actual presence mattered a lot. He was such a likeable, charming guy!

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I have nothing to add, just wanted to say:

Originally Posted by Gordis

I really give up: both of us (and half of the Moot) now know the accursed L #246 by heart. It says "Sauron wouldn't fear the Ring..". "Only one of equal stature (a maia, that is) could beat him in direct confrontation" "Of the Man no one ... and so on... bla bla bla". It has been quoted again and again in this very thread. What else do you want?

I come in here and read everything, even though I don't contribute , and I know it by heart now.

[Landroval]

In his actual presence, ALL of the Mirdain DID believe him.

Be that as it may, but the one thing that was stinking as hell was what he told them: to recreate Valinor in Middle-Earth; I would say this is the culmination of the pride of the elves (their "melkorism"), a "veiled attack on the gods" (cf letter #131). This blasphemy he proposed caused a sort of a "second fall" of the elves (same source). Not to mention that he instigated discord among the elves Eregion and Elrond, Gil-galad and Galadriel. How fishier can you get?

I come in here and read everything, even though I don't contribute , and I know it by heart now.

Attention class, professors Gordis now has the stand .

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Attention class, professors Gordis now has the stand .

I personally have learned a great deal from Professor Gordis. Even if I don’t agree with everything she says (but I do with most), I will very gladly listen to/read any lecture she gives.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Be that as it may, but the one thing that was stinking as hell was what he told them: to recreate Valinor in Middle-Earth; I would say this is the culmination of the pride of the elves (their "melkorism"), a "veiled attack on the gods" (cf letter #131). This blasphemy he proposed caused a sort of a "second fall" of the elves (same source). Not to mention that he instigated discord among the elves Eregion and Elrond, Gil-galad and Galadriel. How fishier can you get?

You are right, of course. But still it was not this "melkorism" that thoubled our fair Lady Galadriel, but some inconsistency in Annatar's backstory: she failed to remember Maia Aulendil from Valinor.
Even later, when she knew who was the source of that "teaching", she happily used her Ring to create a little "personal paradise on Earth" and to rule it.

Professor Gordis

Ahem, Thanks guys!

[Landroval]

No sarcasm intended on my part CAB, sorry if it is interpretable that way.

[CAB]

No problem, Landroval. I know that you wouldn't be arguing with Gordis if you didn't respect her opinion.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Perhaps "immunity" was not an appropriate word. But still, I believe, hobbits were more resistant to temptation than Men, Elves and Maiar.

Ok, sure. I can go with that, more resistant because of less stature, less innate powerm less desire for power. Even Sam in his ring induced illusions wants beautful gardens everywhere, and Gollum wants fish, fresh fish from the sea, as we pointed out earlier. Compare those to Boromir's rambling for example, or Galadriel's description. So sure, I can live with saying the hobbits are more resistant to the temptation of the Ring.

But he trusted Frodo.

Well, he didn't have any choice, did he? Well, he could have wrested the Ring from Frodo by force, just as he could have from Bilbo, and left him a shattered husk with no mind left....but that wasn't Gandalf's way. So he had to trust Frodo (and he had more trust that that: as he said, Bilbo was MEANT to find it, and FRODO was MEANT to carry it, by a power outside the world (Eru) and if Frodo couldn't find a way, no one could. I. E. Gandalf had as much trust in the providential actions of Eru in the world in this matter as he did in Frodo.

The "Elvish" outlook was certainly mentioned. Why a Morgul wound brings about "more elvish" outlook is a mystery. There was some hint of translucency about the hobbit. I should say "more wraith-ish" would be more appropriate description.

I confess I'm a little lost here. I never said anything about the Morgul wound giving him a "more elvish" outlook, but he certainly has grown in wisdom; the wise are those who side with the elves in Tolkien's books, and with Gandalf.

Landroval has addressed the rest, but he neglected to mention Nimrodel, the perfect example of a fading elf.

The One ring contains all the powers of the other Rings.

But it also corrupts those powers--as you point to Galadreil, so will I.

I interpret it this way: it could give invisibility and turn a human into a wraith - like the 9, it could make a dwarf greedy - like the 7, and, if wielded properly, it could "kindle hearts" as Narya and do whatever Nenya and Vilya were able to do. Galadriel says:
We can't say that, before she got the One, Galadriel was universally loved, was she? So she refers to the power of the One, IMO.

Do you think this love is a positive thing? What good love causes despair? That is twisted love--and fits the definition of evil in Tolkien's world, and in his Catholic mind (cf. Augustine, evil is twisted good (not the absence of good!), and to make it whole it need to be untwisted. See Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet, the Bent Ones). So yes, the Ring can engender love, but an evil, destructive, despairing love that destroys. Not at all the kind of love that Gollum displays toward Frodo, or that Tolkien in the Letters says that Gollum had for Frodo. I. E. Not engendered by the Ring, but by Frodo's kindness and pity.

Read back, please. Your point in this argument was not what you say now, it was this:
You gave three examples to support your point: that Sauron's foulness was perceivable under his fair guise. I've discussed your examples and I have pointed out that the cases of the Numenoreans and the Dwarves differ significantly from the cases of the Mirdain and the future Nazgul.

I don't see my previous comments and the comments I'm making here as sufficiently different; from my point of view they are the same point, not wildly different ones as you seem to want them to be. Either you are misunderstanding me or I am not communicating well, and more likely some of both. So let me make another attempt: Sauron ALWAYS tries to appear (even when he cannot) fair, but his foulness may be perceived under that fair cloak and his true intent perceived. This happens every time. Let's take the examples again, because I think you are overlooking some things.

1) The Elves in the Second Age:

First, Sauron begins going about Middle Earth as Annatar; he comes to Lindon and is refused admittance because for some reason unstated Gilgalad and Elrond distrust him, and distrust him enough to send messengers to the other elven lands to warn them. Proves my point: Sauron's machinations are seen through in spite of the fair form.

Second, Sauron as Annatar hooks up with Celebrimor in Eregion. Just taking the statements in LoTR and in The Rings of Power, C took Sauron as he presented himself to be, and learned much from him and so made the 3. He however saw through Sauron the instant that Sauron put on the Ruling Ring (something that the wearers of the 9 and the 7 later would not be able to do), and so saw through Sauron's designs in spite of the fair form that Sauron presented himself--it took the One Ring to do it, but nonetheless happened.

During all this, Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron and counseled against him and while allowed in the kingdom, Sauron saw fit to work in secret. We aren't told why Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron, (you're take is stated in an unpublished, independent note in UT), but she did. Again, no matter how fair the form, Sauron may be seen through, even if one can not be specific about why.

Let's turn to the Numenoreans: When Ar-Pharazon went up against Sauron, Sauron offers no battle but rather comes in fair form and with fair words. He is taken to Numenor BECAUSE AR-PAHARZON IS NOT CONVINCED!! ("But Ar-Pharazon was not yet deceived...."). This unfortunately was exactly what Sauron wanted but it was achieved by Ar-Pharazon's doubt about him, not by his own devices. Sadly, it only took 3 years for Ar-Pharazon to be deceived and have Sauron as one of his chief advisors....but even then Sauron in his fair guise and his fair words were seen through: Amandil and the rest of the Faithful saw through him, and because they did, there came after the Downfall the Realms in Exile, led by Elendil. I. E. Once again, even knowing his identity, Sauron nonetheless comes with fair form and fair words and is seen through. That Ar-Pharazon was stupid enough to forget his initial mistrust doesn't change the fact that in the beginning he did in fact not trust Sauron. And his trust in Sauron was the undoing of Numenor--

Let's turn again to the dwarves in Book II of LoTR: The messenger says Sauron wished for their FRIENDSHIP, Rings as a sign of said, and even the promise of Moria in exchange for the "least of rings" Dain replies, "I must consider this message and what it means under its FAIR cloak." Do you think Dain is lieing, Gordis? T'would seem so. And underneath that fair cload were discerned "...that his words held both menace and deceit". Fair cloak discerned to hiding foulness. Yes, certainly, it was easier in this case for the dwarves to decide since they knew sauron, his character, etc, but the point is still the same: Sauron comes with fair cloak, but his evil intent may be seen under that cloak for those who are discerning; to those who aren't can only follow enslavement and disaster. In every case, there were those who saw through Sauron's fair cloak. QED.

So why would I expect the future Nazgul to be any more suspicious? Especially those who were Numenoreans? Because Sauron's foul deceipt is discernible to the observant: Tolkien is careful in these stories to point that out. They didn't detect it, to their destruction.

The Numenoreans and the Dwarves knew full well they were dealing with Sauron, while the Mirdain and the future Nazgul didn't. Among the Mirdain, NO ONE doubted Sauron. Why would you want the nazgul to be more suspicious?

The Numenoreans knew? Where does it say that Ar-Pharazon knew who Sauron was, that he was the lieutenant of Morgoth, and their ancient enemy from the First Age? I don't see that in the text, certainly not in the Akallabeth. Maybe I missed something and you could be kind enough to point out where it says Ar-Pharazon knew who and what Sauron was? It is true, not one of the Mirdain, the smiths of Eregion, saw Sauron for what he was, but their queen did, and they didn't listen and even rejected her and her husband's rule.

When Sauron appeared in disguise in Ost-in Edhil there was nothing to give him away to the Mirdain.

Galadriel? Messengers from Gil-galad and Elrond? Their own misgivings, misgivings that at least some other elves were having? Given their history with Morgoth and Sauron, a modicum of doubt about Annatar, esp. once he begins sowing dissension between first them and Gil-galad, and then between them and their king and queen? But no....

He was universally trusted. Even Galadriel had nothing definite against him.

Nothing definite but she didn't welcome him or like him either, nor trust him. I. E. so much for "universal" trust. And again, these are not innocent elves, many are refugees from Gondolin and other elven kingdoms that fell in the First Age due to treachery. And Galadriel (and according to other sources, others) at least senses an unfocused by definite ill will directed against the elves and men. Plenty to at least raise a yellow alert: caution.

Why should there be anything to give him away when he spoke with the future nazgul?

You are kidding, right? Well, first there are Numenoreans among them, they at least should remember their own history and ancestry. As for the others, would you be suspicious is someone promised you a great deal in return for nothing more than receiving his gift of friendship, a gift that keeps on giving, extends your life etc....so even if at first they didn't detect anything, they didn't lose their free will entirely, and yet continued to wear the ring until they were utterly and completely dominated. So let me reiterate: fair cloak hides foul deceit that is seen through by some, but not by others who don't look.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Professor Gordis

Ahem, Thanks guys!

*throws paper airplane from shadowy recesses at the back*

so ... Professor "Bumbledore" Gordis heh what, i say? Do i? yes!!

( ... y'know it's how i have always imagined you! )

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by CAB

No problem, Landroval. I know that you wouldn't be arguing with Gordis if you didn't respect her opinion.

..well.... you live and learn as my ol' gaffer used to say!

..but's that a new one on me ..an' no mistake!

best, BB
(keep it up guys and gals)

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You are right, of course. But still it was not this "melkorism" that thoubled our fair Lady Galadriel, but some inconsistency in Annatar's backstory: she failed to remember Maia Aulendil from Valinor.
Even later, when she knew who was the source of that "teaching", she happily used her Ring to create a little "personal paradise on Earth" and to rule it.

You are conflating stories here. Her failure to remember a Maia Aulendil among Aule's people is part of an independent note published as a footnote in the UT: Of Galadriel and Celeborn. This shouldn't be conflated with the misgivings Galadriel has in the actual story.

And I believe you have the sequence incorrect. According to Of Galadriel and Celeborn, they ruled Eregionl; when Sauron inspired a rebellion, Galadriel left, crossed the mountains, and founded Lorien as a stronghold against Sauron (not a personal paradise). It was still sometime before Celebrimor (sp?) discovered Sauron when the latter put on the ONe Ring, and once he did ol' C headed across the mountains and consulted Galadriel who counselled that the 3 be hidden far away from Eregion and not used (do remember that if used Sauron wearing the ONe could detect them and the thoughts of those who wore them). She then received her Ring . Her wearubg if the Ring increased her desire for the Sea and so she lost her joy in ME So: a) Lorien was established before the Ring came her way b) it was established as a fortress against Sauron and his minions c) she with her husband later ruled the kingdom for a long time without the power of the ring and d) the ring drained her of her joy in Middle Earth--hardly a personal paradise.

[Butterbeer]

blimey ... BB tries to catch up ... so we have the good proffessor ( with the candlestick in the library), ol' Forkbeard (hello there, long time! ) and then the 2 new guys CAB and Landroval who both seem to be a baiting me with the idea that i cannot apparently read ... ...


mmm ... it all sounds interesting!

Has Lord Olmer been around recently?

so ...we playing team tag or what?


Professor: why is the letter #246 "accursed"?

Are you implying it was not written by Tolkien and that it maqy some vodoo thought-restricting power over those that read it too many times???

best (all) BB

[Landroval]

b) it was established as a fortress against Sauron and his minions

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel, FotR

He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.

by that time, Sauron was a 'mere lieutenant' of Melkor.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I disagree:

by that time, Sauron was a 'mere lieutenant' of Melkor.

Hey Landroval,
Its late, so I'm gonna be quick. If you have UT, read the intro to "Of Celeborn and Galadriel". If you don't, let me say briefly that Christopher Tolkien notes that there are several contradictions in his father's handling of Galadriel's back story, that being one of them. I wouldn't have referred us to UT had it not been the obvious place where Gordis was drawing information from.

On another note, regardless of which version in the end was the one Tolkien wanted, the one in the LoTR or in the UT, it is clear that one can not claim that Galadriel created Lorien as a "personal paradise on Earth" with the Ring, wrong on 2 counts--it wasn't a personal paradise and it wasn't established with the power of the ring. QED.

Warm Regards,

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

blimey ... BB tries to catch up ... so we have the good proffessor ( with the candlestick in the library), ol' Forkbeard (hello there, long time! ) and then the 2 new guys CAB and Landroval who both seem to be a baiting me with the idea that i cannot apparently read ... ...


mmm ... it all sounds interesting!

Has Lord Olmer been around recently?

so ...we playing team tag or what?


Professor: why is the letter #246 "accursed"?

Are you implying it was not written by Tolkien and that it maqy some vodoo thought-restricting power over those that read it too many times???

best (all) BB

Grand to have you back and in fine fettle and finer form, BB!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I confess I'm a little lost here. I never said anything about the Morgul wound giving him a "more elvish" outlook, but he certainly has grown in wisdom; the wise are those who side with the elves in Tolkien's books, and with Gandalf.

I meant this:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard-post_69

Oh, I don't know about "Man-like". Is wisdom indeed a "human" possession? In Tolkien's world it is indeed the elves and Gandalf who have wisdom--Frodo perhaps has becomce more "elvish" in outlook, a vestige, a sign, of the light of the Undying Lands.

I thought you referred to this quote from LOTR- Many Meetings:

Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside, and took a good look at Frodo. The colour had come back to his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
`Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. `He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'

and to these quotes

Faramir: `But whatever befell on the North March, you, Frodo, I doubt no longer. If hard days have made me any judge of Men's words and faces, then I may make a guess at Halflings! Though,' and now he smiled, `there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe.

Sam: And for a moment he lifted up the Phial and looked down at his master, and the light burned gently now with the soft radiance of the evening-star in summer, and in that light Frodo's face was fair of hue again, pale but beautiful with an elvish beauty, as of one who has long passed the shadows.

Gorbag: 'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized.

I would say the process of acquiring "more elvish outlook" started right after the Morgul wound.

Perhaps the future nazgul also looked more and more "elvish , more and more transparent, until OOPS - they disappear entirely.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Landroval has addressed the rest, but he neglected to mention Nimrodel, the perfect example of a fading elf.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I had an impression that Nimrodel just got lost and nobody knows what has become of her??

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

So yes, the Ring can engender love, but an evil, destructive, despairing love that destroys.

Well, I agree, the Ring twists everything. But isn't Gollum's love twisted? If Gollum loved Frodo with pure love, would he lead him to Shelob? That was simply an attempt of calculated, premeditated murder.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

First, Sauron begins going about Middle Earth as Annatar; he comes to Lindon and is refused admittance because for some reason unstated Gilgalad and Elrond distrust him, and distrust him enough to send messengers to the other elven lands to warn them. Proves my point: Sauron's machinations are seen through in spite of the fair form.

Right. But what does it prove? that Sauron's foulness could be dimly perceived only by selected few, and those few (except Galadriel), haven't even seen him:

Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship.Silm

He however saw through Sauron the instant that Sauron put on the Ruling Ring

Of course he did! One could hardly continue to believe his dear old friend after hearing him say: "Ash nazg drabatuluk..etc.."

As for the other examples, as I said, people knew he WAS Sauron, so it helped somewhat to be more wary. Even in this case, though, many were deceived.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Dain replies, "I must consider this message and what it means under its FAIR cloak." Do you think Dain is lieing, Gordis? T'would seem so.

Lieing to the messenger of Mordor? Of course, why not? Dain wants to gain time and learn more. Do you think he really considered the possibility to give away Bilbo? If he said "no" outright, he would have been attacked immediately, for all he knew. Simple diplomacy.

would you be suspicious is someone promised you a great deal in return for nothing more than receiving his gift of friendship, a gift that keeps on giving, extends your life etc..

Sounds great! Such a gift I sure as hell won't refuse. Would you?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

On another note, regardless of which version in the end was the one Tolkien wanted, the one in the LoTR or in the UT, it is clear that one can not claim that Galadriel created Lorien as a "personal paradise on Earth" with the Ring, wrong on 2 counts--it wasn't a personal paradise and it wasn't established with the power of the ring. QED.

You misunderstood me. I was not referring to the Second Age, when Nenya was not wielded, but to the Third, when Galadriel took over the Rule of Lorien after Amroth had disappeared (TA 1981) and with the help of her Ring DID create a little personal paradise on Earth , complete with mallorns and al, a realm with twisted time and strictly guarded borders, a realm which endured as long as the Rings endured. And here I refer strictly to the LOTR.

Lorien as described by Sam

Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning. It's wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there's any magic about, it's right down deep, where I can't lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.'
'You can see and feel it everywhere,' said Frodo.

and this quote

Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. `It's very strange,' he murmured. `The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning. You'll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we'd been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country.
`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there! '
`And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. `In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'
`But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'

[Butterbeer]

wotcha Professor!

i'll read that long post sometime i have more patience!

good to see ya!

BB
x x x

[Gordis]

Good to see you too, BB