Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?

[Zilbanne]

Yes I see. I have been making an assumption haven't I! I have been assuming that the nine kings who were offered rings were already greedy before they were offered the rings.

No. Before they had the rings, those nine kings were NOT necessarily more evil or more greedy than anyone else. Anyone who can have lots of everything at their disposal because they are a king though, runs the risk of becoming evil through a misuse of kingly power and the ability to be overly self indulgent because of their personal status as a king. This can happen to a king even if they don't have the evil power from a ring effecting them and pushing them along in a particular direction. I have been assuming that the nine kings were greedy. However they may not have been already greedy in a more outward or overt way. The rings may just have amplified in each of them the inherent problems that can come with a over use of too much power and began to work on them until they became evil.

My thoughts ran along the idea that Gandalf, Galadriel and Aragorn, who were all GOOD people and who had a substaintial amount of personal power, undestood that the ring would be dreadfully wrong even to touch. Not one of them physically were willing to touch the one ring even for a moment because it would have an evil effect on the personal power within them and attempt to turn it to evil.

[jammi567]

that's what i was thinking.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I disagree; there is no mentioning of scarcity of food where Gollum used to live (the great goblin also used to send his underlings to bring fish from the lake); plus, in the Mirkwood, where he was snatching from cradles, he proves to be very versatile - and cruel too:

But I do believe the text says that he would hide in the dark, invisible, and squeeze himself a nice goblin to eat, so that even though the great goblin sent others down to the lake for fish, they were always relunctant to go because of what lived down there. Were Gollum just a strange little fisherman, there would be no reason to fear him.

I'll also point out that Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Exactly
One can't survive on fish for 500 years, though it is a healthy food, prolonging lives, I heard.

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet?

There's some important factors re: Gollum not becoming a wraith while Frodo is.

a) A difference between Gollum and Frodo and the Nine is that during the majority of Sauron's searching for the Ring, Gollum was safe, Sauron hadn't revealed himself and only 50 years before had really begun to actively search for the Ring--when it was found by Bilbo.
b) the Nine are thousands of years old and have been under the effects of the rings for millenia. Gollum for less than half a thousand years. I'd say that for both Gollum and Bilbo, the unnatural stretching of their lives is the first sign of becoming a wraith. But even Gollum, unlike the Nine, had stopped wearing the ring much and had kept it hidden on his island, so its physical effects are not as powerful
c) Frodo is being helped into wraithdom by a wound from a Morgul knife--with the tip inside him for 2 weeks and closing on his heart; a knife with spells on it specifically designed to create wraiths under the power of the Nine and Sauron.

So I'd say that Gollum is on his way to becoming a wraith when he loses the Ring, Frodo is effected more by the Morgul knife than the Ring itself which he seldom wears (though often has about his person).

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well, Frodo had the Ring fot less than 20 years, and he was more or less healed of the Morgul wound, at least the splinter was removed.

Surely it took much more than 20 years to turn even the weakest of Men into a wraith- don't forget Gandalf says "their life seemed endless"

Precisely so, and just for clarity, the effects of the wound had been arrested but not reversed.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by jammi567

but why are you just assuming that all the kings were greedy and such like?

What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But I do believe the text says that he would hide in the dark, invisible, and squeeze himself a nice goblin to eat, so that even though the great goblin sent others down to the lake for fish, they were always relunctant to go because of what lived down there. Were Gollum just a strange little fisherman, there would be no reason to fear him.

I'll also point out that Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo.

Forkbeard, is there any disagreement between us?

What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.

I am not sure if all of them were greedy and such, before becoming wraiths; sure, Gandalf descrived them as "proud and great", but we also have the following statements:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the past, FotR

And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he_ fades:_ he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

and:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's.

which imply that there were some nuances in how evil each one was. There is also a refference in letter #183 about all tyrannts beginning well, and Elrond states that nothing is evil in the begining.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.

It doesn't say the recipients were greedy, but I agree that they have been in some unfavorable for them disposition upon the recieving the Rings.
Rotten person would be inevitably drawn to evil, no need of magic ring.
The whole idea of the Rings of power was to subjugate to his control those, who, otherwise, would NEVER serve Sauron.
So, I think, they were the great men, noble,valiant and proud, who,at some point of their life, wanted to achieve something grand, noteworthy, which would not be easy to accomplish without a little trinket, offered by the well-wisher.
And , enhanced by the power of the rings, they succeeded in doing the great deeds, not aware fact that such handy devise have a hidden side-effects.
Imagine a magnitude of dread and hoplessness the greatest and smartest Lords of Numenor must felt upon realizing in what kind of inescapable trap they had been caught!

[Gordis]

I agree with most points in the posts above.

As we know, the Rings give power "according to the measure of each possessor"(LOTR) and "lead the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith." (L # 212)
.

IMO, most Men and some Elves (like Galadriel, Feanor, or Celebrimbor) not being "evil" were vulnerable to the Rings, just because of their inherent lust for power.

Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim, and would compel Sauron to become his vassal and his servant; for in his pride he deemed that no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the Heir of Eärendil.

I guess, the future nazgul were of similar character.

Men were the most vulnerable to the Rings, and the most vulnerable of Men were the Numenoreans, especially those of the Royal Line, not because they were greedy or evil, but just because of their nature.:

UT, Aldarion and Erendis: Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth – for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the eve-ning. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, river to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth; and children to be teased when nothing else is to do – but they would as soon play with their hounds' whelps. To all they are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning (if the sun shines); for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. Men should be gay, they hold, generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them.

Why hobbits were more or less immune to the Rings? I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa, no, it was because of their minds. Simply, unlike Men, Power and Domination were the last things Hobbits wanted.

Look at Gollum, already corrupted by the Ring, which he had for 500 years.

'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it! '

Really, can the Ring seriously "work" on someone whose wildest dream s to eat fish every day?

And here is Sam's dream of a garden:

Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.

.

Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others".
I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for.

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.

Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he claimed the Ring instead of destroying it.

[Zilbanne]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why hobbits were more or less immune to the Rings? I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa, no, it was because of their minds. Simply, unlike Men, Power and Domination were the last things Hobbits wanted.

Look at Gollum, already corrupted by the Ring, which he had for 500 years.
Really, can the Ring seriously "work" on someone whose wildest dream s to eat fish every day?

And here is Sam's dream of a garden:

.

Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others".
I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for.
Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he clamed the Ring instead of destroying it.

Gordis, I like what you've found and discussed about Smeagol and Sam and Frodo, having a significantly different nature in comparision to the human kings, so that their individual character as wraiths wouldn't be the same as in powerful humans with royal position. The hobbits wanted mostly simply things, fish for smeagol, better gardens for Sam. Frodo wanted things ultimately to be peaceful, like in The Shire. He desired this peacefullness and wanted to get back to it even when having to fight the influence of the ring inside himself. Even in his power over Gollum though, Frodo attemted to use the ring, to get control so that eventually he save the essential peaceful life that he had known in The shire. Although that life because of the power of the ring could no longer fully be his ever again. In his will to dominate Gollum in order to achieve his, there was still some thought of The Shire and that kind of life there, inside him. At mount doom though even Frodo couldn't hold his own desires apart from the will of the ring. Without Gollum there, Frodo's choice may have been similar to Isildur's?

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa,

Doesn't sound very JRR to me, more like CS Lewis?

[Zilbanne]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Doesn't sound very JRR to me, more like CS Lewis?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you elaborate please?

[Landroval]

he started to " train his will to the domination of others".

I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.

Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he clamed the Ring instead of destroying it.

Treating Gollum with pitty saved Frodo and the world, according to letter #181.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Forkbeard, is there any disagreement between us?

NOne. I should have edited the "but" out, I was just adding to what you said.

I am not sure if all of them were greedy and such, before becoming wraiths; sure, Gandalf descrived them as "proud and great", but we also have the following statements:
and:
which imply that there were some nuances in how evil each one was. There is also a refference in letter #183 about all tyrannts beginning well, and Elrond states that nothing is evil in the begining.

True, it doesn't mean that they were so in the beginning, but on the other hand how did Sauron get them to take his rings unless he promised them something they wanted: renown, glory, wealth, power? Saruman wasn't evil in the beginning either, but he was easily tempted by power--perhaps in the beginning the power to set things "right", but that quickly changed. I'd say that that is the analogy with the Nine as well, the promise that they will be able to setting things "better" (Sam's gardens, Frodo's peace, Gollum's fish and recognition, Saruman's temptation of Gandalf, Gandalf's statements to Frodo), but that promise always implies that it is MY vision of better that I will have the power to impose, MY=the temptee. So while originally the 9 may have been benevolent and well intentioned, the very fact that they accepted the ring from Sauron based on his promises shows a moral failure (one that most of us fail).

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.

Treating Gollum with pitty saved Frodo and the world, according to letter #181.

Yes, but I think what Gordis was referring to was Frodo's taking the ring at the Cracks, "It is mine!"

[Landroval]

So while originally the 9 may have been benevolent and well intentioned, the very fact that they accepted the ring from Sauron based on his promises shows a moral failure (one that most of us fail).

I agree; a sort of 'moral failure' was involved in the creation of the power rings also.

Yes, but I think what Gordis was referring to was Frodo's taking the ring at the Cracks, "It is mine!"

As she liked to argue previously, the claiming itself was almost inevitable, and Frodo's past behaviour lead to no evil, but to good.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.

I was referring to this:

Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Sméagol. It is before you.'
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.
[...]
You will never get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!'
Sam looked at his master with approval, but also with surprise: there was a look in his face and a tone in his voice that he had not known before. It had always been a notion of his that the kindness of dear Mr. Frodo was of such a high degree that it must imply a fair measure of blindness. Of course, he also firmly held the incompatible belief that Mr. Frodo was the wisest person in the world (with the possible exception of Old Mr. Bilbo and of Gandalf). Gollum in his own way, and with much more excuse as his acquaintance was much briefer, may have made a similar mistake, confusing kindness and blindness. At any rate this speech abashed and terrified him. He grovelled on the ground and could speak no clear words but nice master.

Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless, as a Ringlord would. I wouldn't be surprised if "love" Gollum felt for Frodo, were also the Ring's doing. Of course, Frodo's mental power permitted him to dominate only weak creatures, like Gollum, but still he fancied that in time he could dominate even a ringwraith:

And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet.

Frodo's failure at the Cracks didn't come unheralded. Here were steps leading to it.

There was a great change in Frodo during the Quest. Saruman was wise enough to notice it:

Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. ‘You have grown, Halfling,’ he said. ‘Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.’

Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities? For his love of peace? No, he respected the qualities of a ringlord the hobbit had acquired.

And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them? He could have come in any fair guise and told anything about the rings...

[Landroval]

Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless

I see; what would you suggest under the circumstances? That he should pet Gollum on the back and assure him nothing was wrong with his criminal tendencies?

Whatever threats he uttered were simply meant to restore a balance of relations, necessary for the fulfillment of the quest; the fact that Frodo restrained himself to doing only that is a sing of superiority on the moral plane, but also of 'folly', on the rational plane.

Gollum loved the ring a lot, he may also have loved Frodo, but to say that his will was dominated by Frodo is a huge leap from that.

as a Ringlord would

Are you saying that Frodo mastered the ring?

Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities?

Yes, I would say so; Saruman still had great insight. Even the name choice I believe wasn't accidental:

Originally Posted by Letter #168

Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. Its Old English form was Froda. Its obvious connexion is with the old word frod meaning etymologically 'wise by experience', but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North

I would say there is a sort of a theme in LotR; as Aragorn says of Merry in the Houses of Healing:

His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom.

Pretty much the same applies with Frodo.

[Landroval]

And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them?

Where did I imply such a thing?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Where did I imply such a thing?

Sorry, it was Forkbeard, not you. Post # 54.