Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?

[Landroval]

Sauron, especially in his earlier days as Annatar, was a very RATIONAL being. He wouldn't do something against his own interests just because of his 'evilness".

Well, he did refuse the summons of the valar after the war of wrath, because of his evil side. And one way to read Myths Transformed is that evil is a subcategory of stupidity

The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.

Hm, the way I interpret the various mentioning of "wraith" in FotR, for example, is that it represents complete obedience to Sauron.

[CAB]

Welcome to Entmoot Zilbanne and thank you for your comments ecthelion. My opinions on this matter have changed a little bit and, also, I don’t think I explained myself terribly well before, so I will try again.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making.

Maybe, but are you sure? We see that he has been greatly twisted, physically and mentally, but is he really becoming a wraith? Personally, I think the effects we see with Gollum are results of a completely different process than wraithing. He is being prolonged and twisted by the Ring, nothing more.

I can recall only one instance when we actually see (what we know to be) someone becoming a wraith; Frodo after being stabbed with a Morgul blade. What are the similarities between what is happening to Frodo with his Morgul wound and to Gollum with the Ring? Are there any?

Of course we can’t know, but to me it seems likely that wraith-making was too complicated to be a mere side effect. The preserving of life and twisting process, however, probably were simple enough (or closely enough related to the rings’ original purpose) to be side effects, in my opinion anyway.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith?

Actually it seems that Frodo was becoming a wraith more slowly than most people would after receiving such a wound. And it seems that with help, it was possible to avoid becoming a wraith after being stabbed with a Morgul blade. Frodo doesn’t seem to be the only known example. Gordis started this excellent thread a while back. I highly recommend reading it. It is very interesting. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=12153

Originally Posted by ecthelion

IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.

Agreed again. The One Ring was meant for control. The Hobbits don’t use it for this (well, maybe Frodo a little bit). What we see with them are essentially all side effects. One possible exception would be Sam’s understanding of the Orcs’ speaking. Maybe Sauron built this power into the Ring to be able to understand the thoughts of those holders of the other great rings whose languages he didn’t speak.

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it.

I somewhat agree with you here and somewhat agree with Gordis. Personally, as I said before, I think it was a measure of last resort, done purposefully.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am almost sure he didn't. I think the "wraithing" effect was undesired. And then it is stated unambiguously that the rings ALONE turned their wielders into wraiths.

I think that is a interesting idea Zilbanne. Maybe not so much to speed things along, but rather simply to cause the entire wraithing process. However, I think it probably was just the rings (or really, Sauron via the rings). Gordis, I am probably forgetting something, but where is this unambiguous statement you are referring to?

Originally Posted by Gordis

For the same reason, Sauron couldn't bestow the Nine he has gathered to himself to men again, to make more nazgul, while he had NO Ruling ring in his possession. The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.

Well Gordis, I am sure you would agree that the main reason that Sauron didn’t give the nine rings to other men was that he needed them to control the Nazgul. I also wonder if the rings could hold more than one (partial, I suppose) fea. Who knows? Maybe this is a reason why Gollum wasn’t a wraith. The Ring could only hold one fea and it already held Sauron’s. Concerning your last point, in my opinion, a holder of one of the nine rings in the Third Age wouldn’t have been under Sauron’s control or turned to a wraith. He would have been effected much the same as Frodo/Bilbo/Gollum.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Well, he did refuse the summons of the valar after the war of wrath, because of his evil side. And one way to read Myths Transformed is that evil is a subcategory of stupidity

Come on, NOT going to Valinor was the wisest decision Sauron made in his life!
Look what the Valar did to Morgoth!

CAB, I have to disagree with your idea that the One, unlike the 9, didn't turn men into wraiths eventually.

I have found a quote about it:

From Letter 131: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.

I interpret this quote like that: The One Ring contained the powers of all the others, so it HAD to contain the property to turn a mortal into a wraith.

Also the One DID confer invisibility- and using the invisibility function seems to be DIRECTLY connected with becoming the wraith at the end:

‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

But yes, CAB, you are right, Gollum hadn't faded - he hadn't even BEGUN to fade, he way Frodo faded after Weathertop. For instance, at the Ford, Frodo saw the nazgul faces even without his Ring, while Gollum was absolutely unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring.

So clearly, with Gollum, the process was VERY slow. Some argue that he didn't use the Ring much, but I favour his special hobbit resistance.

The same was true for Frodo - with the Morgul knife. He had the shard in him for 17 days! The nazgul themselves believed that he would turn into wraith in a day or two, so they stopped following the company. (They could and should! have followed them after Weathertop, but they even let the company cross the Road unchallenged and lost them again. Even if they did it on purpose , they had to explain it to Sauron somehow, hadn't they? I believe they told Sauron something like "Who could have thought that the midget would resist the shard for two weeks?" )

[Landroval]

Come on, NOT going to Valinor was the wisest decision Sauron made in his life! :P
Look what the Valar did to Morgoth!

Nice girls like bad guys, eh?

Sauron was given a chance of repentance, as Melkor was given once too. Manwe "left him room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation", so I doubt that Sauron would have met Melkor's "end".

[CAB]

Gordis, I don’t think there really is a right answer to this question. There are problems with any one view, as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by Gordis

CAB, I have to disagree with your idea that the One, unlike the 9, didn't turn men into wraiths eventually.

I interpret this quote like that: The One Ring contained the powers of all the others, so it HAD to contain the property to turn a mortal into a wraith.

This doesn’t really damage my argument. I agree that the One had the powers of the other rings but I don’t think that any of the rings had the ability to make wraiths. I think it was Sauron acting through the rings via the One.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also the One DID confer invisibility- and using the invisibility function seems to be DIRECTLY connected with becoming the wraith at the end:

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

This may damage my argument. There are some other possible interpretations for this quote though. It also makes me wonder why Gollum would have held out so long. He started his possesion of the Ring with the murder of his friend. It doesn’t get much less “well-meaning” than that. Shouldn’t his Hobbit toughness have been offset a bit by this?

I have started to think that maybe Hobbit resistance is due more to thier lack of ambition and evil tendancies than any physical or mental strengths. Gollum seems to have been an exception to this general trait of Hobbits and he was more easily seduced by the Ring than anyone else. So, I don’t see him not becoming a wraith due to resistance, but rather because there was no wraith making process present.

As for Frodo and his Morgul wound, it is possible that the Ring actually aided his fight against “wraithdom”. The rings preserved their mortal owners’ lives. Frodo’s life would have essentially been ended by the Morgul blade. So, maybe the Ring helped to extend Frodo’s life by holding off his “wraithification”. I’d like to make up some more “wraith” words, but I’ll stop here.

[jammi567]

or maybe, there was a bit of evil in gollum before the murder, as well as the murder itself. but then he repented for his sins when he got inside the misty mountains. therefore, he's not turned into a wraith because he did an evil deed, but truely repented, so the ring has nothing to work on.

[Landroval]

Well, he did commit canybalism (he was eating orcs in the Hobbit, and intended to eat Bilbo too, and there is a line somewhere in LotR about Gollum eating elven children).

[jammi567]

yes, but that was to survive.

[Landroval]

I disagree; there is no mentioning of scarcity of food where Gollum used to live (the great goblin also used to send his underlings to bring fish from the lake); plus, in the Mirkwood, where he was snatching from cradles, he proves to be very versatile - and cruel too:

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

Through Mirkwood and back again it led them, though they never caught him. The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said that there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood. It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles.

[jammi567]

ok, maybe it was for a bit of variety.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

ok, maybe it was for a bit of variety.

Exactly
One can't survive on fish for 500 years, though it is a healthy food, prolonging lives, I heard.

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet?

Sea-food diet - I eat what I see.
Perhaps, cooling off the Ring in the river reduced the potency.
Remember, the Ring was so hot, so Isildur can't even touch it.
I think, Gandalf has activated it by throwing the Ring in the fire. This why the Ring's effect on Frodo was more fast and dramatic.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Perhaps, cooling off the Ring in the river reduced the potency. Remember, the Ring was so hot, so Isildur can't even touch it.
I think, Gandalf has activated it by throwing the Ring in the fire. This why the Ring's effect on Frodo was more fast and dramatic.

So you're saying, if this was true, that had Isildur had kept the ring for a bit longer then 2 years, then we would be having an extra wraith running around!

[jammi567]

If, this is true, and we take into other accounts the the morgul-blade sped up the wraithing prosess, then why didn't Frodo become a wraith whilst the lotr happens?

[Gordis]

Well, Frodo had the Ring fot less than 20 years, and he was more or less healed of the Morgul wound, at least the splinter was removed.

Surely it took much more than 20 years to turn even the weakest of Men into a wraith- don't forget Gandalf says "their life seemed endless"

[jammi567]

Good point.

[Zilbanne]

Gordis And CAB Thanks sincerely for the Welcome!

Somehow I think the nine men who became the Nazgul didn't become wraiths until well after their normal life spans, unless possibly they were stabbed with morgul blades before that. Sort of like what almost happened to Frodo because of his stabbing.

Frodo and Bilbo might never have become wraiths in the way that the nine did, because they weren't of bad character. Personally I think all the ONE ring could do to them, in their relative innocence, was prolongue their lives. Gradually and probably very gradually ,the ring may have influenced Bilbo and Frodo towards evil. It would take far longer than the quickway it worked on the nine men who became the nazgul or of course upon poor Smeagol. Those nine men were probably already greedy and power hungry before they were offered their rings. So the evil effect of the rings likely started through their own greed.

The Baggins hobbits intended to be good and always were good in a societal way and were never to be personally violent or even indulge in anything that could eventually lead to anything evil. Bilbo very sweetly used the power of invisbility from ring mostly to get out of the way of the Sackville-Baggins. Bilbo could have used the ring to bother other hobbits in a malicious way or plunder other hobbit holes but those as even possibilities would probably never even occur to Bilbo because he was so essentially good.

Frodo was going the way of a wraith because he was stabbed. Like Bilbo he didn't desire to use the ring for any personal gain either.

Gollum's personal change after his possesion of the ring, began with murder and he became feral and animalistic in a twisted, toadish, froggish sort of way. Maybe by the time Bilbo meets up with Gollum, he was on the way to becoming a wraith but would be this strange looking reptilian type of wraith, always quite different from the more usual mannish type. The ring amplified the feral parts of his nature which were already there before the ring came, but amplified them to an extreme degree. I think Smeagol was a kind of hobbit juvenille delinquent and was weak psychologically inside himself. The ring was quickly able to exploit his worst qualities because of his basic weak mindedness. I think without the ring's evil quickly invading his weak mind, Smeagol may have continued to act like a hoodlum. However he would probably not have become a murderer or bestial and cannabalistic either. The ring pushed his weak mind towards his feral, beastial nature and brought it out until Smeagol was overwhelmed by it all and became gollum completely.

Without interferrence from the ring, Smeagol may have come of age, settled down not far from his matriarchal grandmother's hole and may have achieved some degree of hobbit like, respectablilty. Probably with his neighbors forming the opinion properly that Smeagol was always rather strange. However we will never know for sure.


Pardon me if I'm stepping on anyone else's pre posted ideas! Not my intention. I'm new here and there is so much to read and catch up on.

[jammi567]

so you're saying that none of the nine kings were good, but that all of them were bad and evil.

[Zilbanne]

No. They were inherently more greedy than Bilbo or Frodo though. Somehow the evil of the rings found something to exploit in them.

[jammi567]

but why are you just assuming that all the kings were greedy and such like?