The argument of Ungoliant

[Turgon_Turambar]

Fellow mooters i am tryin to settle an argument with a friend of mine about Ungoliant. I am saying that after she drank from the wells of varda and sucked the 2 trees dry she became incredible powerful. i am saying that when at this stage of strenght NO amount of arrows could pierce her armour they would simply bounce off or break. My friend doesnt agree.

Can somebody either agree with me or him.

[Dolenloteiel]

I don't think that Ungoliant was resistant to arrows or that her skin had become an armor. After taking the light from the two trees, Ungoliant swelled into a dark, large spider thingy, and Morgoth became afraid. It is said that when she held Morgoth captive because she couldn't have the Silmarils she "belched dark clouds" it was the darkness that kept her safe, and terribly evil. Yavanna was afraid the Silmarils would "dissapear into nothingness" if Morgoth handed them over. It wasn't an armor, it was a darkness that put fear and terror into the hearts of the elves, and the Valar, they couldn't strike back with arrows and such. Hope that answers your question.

[Nerdanel]

Dolenloteiel, I think your answer makes sence. That's how I understood it too.

[Turgon_Turambar]

i thought that becuase it says in lord of the rings books that shelob had a sort of armour for a shell and only her belly was ''soft'' and as Ungoliant was no doubt much larger making her shell more thicker. I still think she was impenetrable.

[Lord Manafirogh]

haha! lol take it like a man. ok lets put it this way. would 1000 arrows kill ungolian? thank u

[Dolenloteiel]

I'm not really sure. Possibly. Good argument, Turgon. I guess it may be a combination of both. Tolkien emphasizes that her darkness was terrible, I don't remember an elf that struck back, or a Valar, only that Orome and Tulkas pursued Ungoliant and Morgoth all throughout Valinor. I couldn't say.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Can someone find me the bit that says Ungolian cant be hit by arrows? If morgoth can feel pain i dont see how she cant be killed by arrows. Her darkness is black smoke. smoke doesnt block arrows. its not like shes got fire around her body that she can burn the arrows before they hit her. shes just a bugger version of Shelob and happen to get biger wen she sucked the tress. I know shes powerful but she aint valar so she can be killed. unless some1 can show me evidence from the book that it says she cant be killed by arrows or by stabing her or wotever this argument is over.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I haven't found a definitive answer. However, in the Silmarillion it's strongly implied that she could be hurt by the balrogs flaming whips, which implies a (relatively) soft body and not hard armor, but , on the other hand, it's possible she had a tough, leatheryish skin.
Hmm. I suppose, as Frodo observed about the Elves, if asked for counsel I prefer to say both no and yes.

This may be a relevant Ungoliant citation:

With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her"

.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Nah im not convinced i still think she can be killed by archers. aim for the head and mouth. Smoke isnt body armour, black clouds dont stop arrows. i know shes strong but she aint valar just an over grow spider, bigger version of shelob.

[Turgon_Turambar]

i dont care Ungoliant is strong. If she could ''withstand'' the whips of the Balrogs long enough to escape it must mean her hide was pretty dam hard. Mr.Feanor oh mightiest of the Noldor was killed by them.......you work it out. If 1 arrow cant pierce 1000 arrows wouldnt, it would be like shooting a brick wall. Maybe if you shot her in the eyes enough times to blind her????

[Lord Manafirogh]

i didnt say shes not powerful. but she aint got bullet proof vest. lol shes just a normal evil big spider. she might have strong skin but its not wall or metal to stop arrows. 1000 arrows are too much even for morgoth. arrows can peirce through some metal, unless ungolian has metal skin i dout she cant be killed by arrows.

[Sister Golden Hair]

i know shes strong but she aint valar just an over grow spider, bigger version of shelob.

Doesn't it say somewhere that Ungoliant was a Maia? Perhaps in the HoMe, can't remember.

[Lord Manafirogh]

i thought none knew where she came from.

[Turgon_Turambar]

She was a corrupted mair spirit brought for the service of Morgoth but because she was so powerful she rathered to be her own mistress than serve Morgoth so she went to Avathar.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The Silmarillion entry seems to be indicative, but not definitive, about Ungoliant's origin. It's one of Tolkien's 'stories believed by" a given group. Perhaps like the varied origins attributed to orcs.

The Elder knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness

[Lord Manafirogh]

That doent answer alot. Maia cant leave Ea right but they can lose their body form? meaning some1 can destroyed their body? anyway thats another argument. i just wanna know if she can be killed by archers yes or no.

[Turgon_Turambar]

I will stand firm and say NO only if the arrows hit her in the eyes then she'll be blinded and run away.

[Lord Manafirogh]

LOL. she aint got bullet proof vest and i stand "firm" with that. lol

[Dolenloteiel]

Alrighty, I HAD to do this! *Whips out trusty Tolkien Encyclopedia*

UNGOLIANT - Spirit of evil. Ungoliant may have been one of the Maiar corrupted by Melkor, but in Arda she served only herself. A creature of darkness, Ungoliant assumed a huge spider form and dwelt in a dark ravine in Avathar. Yet she desired and hated light, and she agreed to help Melkor poison the Two Trees, Ungoliant came to Ezellohar, where she drained the Trees of their sap, poisoned them, and drank the Wells of Varda dry. The pursuit of Oromë and Tulkas was stymied by the Unlight, and Ungoliant and Melkor escaped to Middle Earth. There, in Lammoth, Ungoliant demanded the gems which Melkor had stolen from Formenos. She devoured them and grew larger and darker, and she attacked Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils. Driven off by the Balrogs, Ungoliant fled to Nan Durgotheb, where she bred with creatures there to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders. It is said that she later went far south, where in her last hunger she devoured herself.

*whew* She could have been defeated, I'm sure, but the fact the Tolkien doesn't mention anything about arrows, it's hard to say. Above it says "...to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders..." Could Shelob have been more... ummm durable, I guess than Ungoliant?

[Lord Manafirogh]

Thats information i already know. like i've said before shes just a bigger more evil shelob and i dont see hoe she could stop arrows.