Conspiracy theory

[CAB]

I recently came up with this little conspiracy theory which I now submit for your approval (or more likely: disapproval ).

With this theory I am attempting to answer three questions.

1. How did the Wise know that the One Ring could only be destroyed at Orodruin?

Where is the evidence? Apparently some of the seven rings were destroyed. How would they know the One was different? No attempts to end the Ring's existence were made before it fell into the fire at the Cracks of Doom.

2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

This was the subject of the first thread I started here on Entmoot. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13014
No doubt some here will disagree, but I don't think we ever got a sufficient answer to this question. I appear to hold a lesser view of the Valar than most people here, yet even I think that they would end the threat of the Ring and Sauron if the Ring were brought to them.

3. Why did Sauron only guess the Ring-company's quest when he became aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Now here, I admit, the answer given by the Wise is a good one: Sauron judged others by desire for power, so he wouldn't expect them to attempt to destroy the Ring. But even Elrond conceded that this confusion would probably only last "for a while". When the Ring left Lorien and wasn't on Galadriel's or Gandalf's hand, Sauron should have known something was up. Or how about after a Hobbit turned up in Mordor. Did he think Aragorn had the Ring? I doubt it. Aragorn challenged Sauron via the Palantir by showing himself, his sword, and his banner. Wouldn't he have shown the Ring too if he had it?

According to this theory the answers to these questions center on one person: Saruman. Saruman had great power, authority, and influence, and he desperately wanted the Ring.

1. How did the Wise know that the One Ring could only be destroyed at Orodruin?

Because Saruman told them so. He was the most learned among the Wise concerning the great rings (as ironic as that is, since three other members held great rings and he didn't). Saruman was one of Aule's people and a great craftsman, unlike the other members of the Wise. Also there is the power of his voice, his influence. He didn't want the Ring destroyed if it was found, so he made the others believe that it was (almost) impossible to do so.

2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

Because Saruman told them so. Saurman was the chief emissary of the Valar in Middle Earth. This put him in a very strong position concerning matters such as this. Gandalf may have questioned that the Valar wouldn't accept the Ring, but he (early on) trusted Saruman, and Saruman, unlike Gandalf, was a disciple of Aule (who would probably have been the one asked to destroy the Ring in Valinor), and again, there is the power of Saruman's influence.

3. Why did Sauron only guess the Ring-company's quest when he became aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Because he didn't realize the Wise had been so deluded by Saruman. At Elrond's council it was stated that the road to the Grey Havens would be dangerous, closely watched by Sauron. Yet in all of Tolkien's writings that I have read, I can't recall anything saying that Sauron took any measures to guard the road between Rivendell and the Havens. He clearly never blocked the path to Orodruin. Why? Because if the Wise wanted to destroy the Ring, they probably could have done so right in Rivendell, and Sauron knew it. According to his knowledge, there was no reason to send the Ring to Valinor or Mordor.

Well…umm…fire away.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by CAB

3. Why did Sauron only guess the Ring-company's quest when he became aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Because he didn't realize the Wise had been so deluded by Saruman. At Elrond's council it was stated that the road to the Grey Havens would be dangerous, closely watched by Sauron. Yet in all of Tolkien's writings that I have read, I can't recall anything saying that Sauron took any measures to guard the road between Rivendell and the Havens. He clearly never blocked the path to Orodruin. Why? Because if the Wise wanted to destroy the Ring, they probably could have done so right in Rivendell, and Sauron knew it. According to his knowledge, there was no reason to send the Ring to Valinor or Mordor.

Well…umm…fire away.

You raise some interesting questions. But the premise that Sauron "knew" that the Ring could be destroyed in Rivendell or elsewhere doesn't quite add up.
Sauron didn't look to guard Mt. Doom because he did not conceive, not in his wildest dreams that anyone or anything would want to destroy the Ring. Relative to our point of view it would be a naive thought as we consider the Ring to be evil But if we see Sauron's take on it we would much rather expect that he simply cannot fathom that anyone would want to destroy the Ring, because in his view the Ring is not 'evil' per se. It is the most useful instrument around. It is the culmination of all of his endeavours and powers. It is all-mighty and all-powerful and so to destroy it would seem like a ridiculously foolish and irresponsible act in the mind of Sauron. In fact, I do not even think he has though of it. It is simply a non-issue.
Thus Sauron's faulty mission to recover the ring. Faulty because he was inevitably always one step behind because he could not see the true goal of the Fellowship of the Ring. And therein lies his ultimate weakness. The inability to see behind what simply strikes fear in his enemies, that unselfish (relatively) quest to destroy the Ring, for the ultimate good.
So therefore he was always miscalculating, misjudging and ultimately underestimating the purpose of his enemies.
I would assume part of his all-out strategy in the war campaigns was to strike at every place where the Ring could be abused to counter his power, namely Minas Tirith, Rohan, Lothlorien, even the region surrounding the Lonely Mountain.

But that's my take on it

[Jon S.]

>> 2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

If it's fair to ask this question, then it's equally fair also to ask:

2. Why didn't the Valar come to ME to destroy the Ring?

The answer to my #2 is the answer to your #2.

P.S. And from an external-to-the-story standpoint, the answer is the same one as why couldn't the Eagles fly Frodo (or whoever) over Mt. Doom to drop it in (which is arguably How the Lord of the Ring Should Have Ended ).

[Ingwe]

Keep in mind too, that Sauron was a Maiar of Aule the Smith. He probably knew as Saruman did what the Ring was capable of doing, how it could be destroyed, and so on. Sauron assumed that no one would be daring enough to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom or otherwise. Sauron was depending solely on the Ring bewitching someone enough to the point that he/she would bring it to Sauron, or that the Ring would escape them and fall right into the hands of the Nine, or perhaps another agent of Sauron's. The closer it got to Mordor, the more likely Sauron could get it. He just never conceived that someone would actually attempt to destroy it.

The conspiracy was of Elrond's and Gandalf's doing. Saruman I feel may have been destined to be a part of all the confusion - the leader of the Wise and thus the Wisest of all the Valar's emissaries - ends up being predestined to covet the Ring to the point that he would build an army. The battle of Saruman versus Rohan in and of itself seemed to act as a way to distract Sauron himself and concentrate on small and petty wars and thus Sauron took his attention from the Ring, thinking that the wars being fought might somehow give Men and Elves the power to resist Sauron's influence enough to use the Ring against him and conduct a direct siege on Barad-Dur and retake all of Ithilien, perhaps muster the allegiance of the East, or whatever. Sauron feared another strike on Mordor. With the King having returned, just as Gandalf said, Sauron feared him. The King of Gondor above all could muster the force to at least severely damage Sauron's resources. Sauron knew that the Ring could be destroyed in Mount Doom. The thing is, he thought that the only way anyone would dare to do it is with a great host with its leader holding the One Ring. And thus, given the evidence of the Nine having fallen from Men to Wraiths, Sauron thought that since the great host would likely consist of Men (he thought), they would all be his in the end. He never thought that a small band, let alone just two halflings, would ever be wise enough to find a safe way into Mordor, let alone find away to the Cracks of Doom itself.

Sauron was very wise - very wise indeed. A bigger conspiracy is one that involves the lesser peoples of Middle Earth (that being the Men, Elves, and even the Wizards) banding together to actually fool Sauron. Sauron was, by this time, whether he had a physical form or not, very much able to rule all of Middle Earth. He needed only the Ring to hasten that progress. If by attrition Minas Tirith had fallen, Gondor had fallen, and all of the lands of Middle Earth had been excavated of their peoples, Sauron would have found the Ring, but by that time, the destruction would have been so complete (as would have been Sauron's dominion) that he would almost have not needed the Ring.

Sauron didn't intend, like his master, to undo the whole of Middle Earth to find the Secret Fire. He intended to rule it as a Lord...and.....here's the ticker...to please his master. At the end of the War of Wrath, Sauron failed his master. He hid from him because his master's wrath would have been quite complete...should Morgoth ever return...which he would...should the prophecy of Mandos come true. Sauron feared his master more than he feared any kind of destruction incurred by his own destruction, by his own will. To please his master, or at least "change the subject" as it were, upon their eventual meeting, Sauron would want to show his master that he was able to do well as Morgoth's second in command, so that Morgoth wouldn't punish him. He very well knew the ring's destruction would destroy him and caste whatever was left of him into the void. He feared this, but he feared his master more. Choosing the lesser of two fates, he chose to tempt fate, for the Ring being destroyed was a heck of a lot better than facing up to the master he failed.

Sauron was wise but he fled in the War of Wrath and that mistake would haunt him for the rest of his life. But of course, why face the Wrath of the Valar - that's just as bad as facing up against his own master's punishments. So he did the smart thing and fled, while he could. If you saw Eönwë, flag of the force of the Valar, along with over a hundred thousand Elves, powered on by the forces of the Vanyar, thousands of Eagles, and the Valar themselves coming upon you, well, you would be smart to sort of get yourself out of the way as quickly as you could.

Sauron's fate was a happier fate than he had imagined it would be if the Valar or his master got a hold of him. And if he were successful, upon the prophecy of Mandos, Morgoth would return and give Sauron lordship over the lands...that is until the dead returned and fought...Turin himself shoving Gurthang into Morgoth's black cold heart, ending all that crap. Either way, in the end, Morgoth and Sauron were doomed, though I'm certain they didn't believe in the prophecies; for if they did, they'd just outright give up, unless they figure "eh, hey, at least we can rule Middle Earth for a million years, that's not so bad".

But that's my current take on things. I like the conspiracy theory of your's a lot CAB, definitely gave me somethin to think about.

[Gordis]

Interesting theory, CAB. I think it might be called a “possible explanation” as there is little to prove or to disprove it.

Originally Posted by CAB

1. How did the Wise know that the One Ring could only be destroyed at Orodruin?

Because Saruman told them so. He was the most learned among the Wise concerning the great rings (as ironic as that is, since three other members held great rings and he didn't). Saruman was one of Aule's people and a great craftsman, unlike the other members of the Wise. Also there is the power of his voice, his influence. He didn't want the Ring destroyed if it was found, so he made the others believe that it was (almost) impossible to do so.

I agree that it likely was Saruman who was the ultimate source. He must have persuaded Gandalf and Gandalf has persuaded the rest

`But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond.

But does it necessarily mean that Saruman has lied? Why did Sauron choose to forge the Ring in the cracks of Doom in the first place – in a cave a good way from Barad-Dur, instead of working on it in a forge by the Dark Tower? There seemed to be a mystical connection between the One and Orodruin, the connection that the other Rings lacked.

Originally Posted by CAB

2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

Because Saruman told them so. Saurman was the chief emissary of the Valar in Middle Earth.
I appear to hold a lesser view of the Valar than most people here, yet even I think that they would end the threat of the Ring and Sauron if the Ring were brought to them.

I think the Wise did ask once (sending the message to Valinor with one of the departing Elves) - and got a negative answer. But I am pretty sure that the Wise asked for permission to KEEP the One Ring in Valinor, NOT for help in DESTROYING it.
I think the idea to keep it forever away from Sauron – plan A - was predominant throughout all the Third Age. And only right before the War of the Ring the Wise have understood that even without the Ring Sauron would win quite soon. Then they turned to the desperate plan B – to destroy the Ring in order to destroy Sauron. But when exactly?

And this is connected with another crucial question. Did Gandalf tell Elrond and Galadriel that the One Ring was (quite likely) found and being kept in the Shire? Saruman was not told for sure – and he was still the head of the Council. Was Galadriel? I doubt it. Gandalf must have suspected her (and rightly) in desiring the Ring for herself no less than Saruman. Then likely Elrond was also kept in the dark as he was closely connected to Galadriel and telling him something was as bad as informing his mother-in-law directly.

When did Gandalf tell the truth to Elrond? I guess in spring of 3018, when he had learned Gollum’s story: specifically that Sauron was also aware of the Ring’s re-appearance. Then, I believe, Plan B was hastily set in motion. Did they have time to consult with Valinor? Likely not. Unless it could have been done via the Palantir of Elostirion, if it was still in rapport with the Master stone of Tol Eressea. But personally I don’t think they managed to consult the Valar – too little time.
Also, they remembered the answer to their first request:

`And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'

Maybe the answer was brought back by the Istari when they came to ME. The answer seemed to encompass both keeping the Ring and destroying it – but was that really the case? Anyway it was Gandalf who finalized the choice, when he told Frodo to bring the Ring to Rivendell – not to the Havens.

Originally Posted by CAB

3. Why did Sauron only guess the Ring-company's quest when he became aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom?

Here I agree with Coffeehouse’s post

Originally Posted by CAB

I can't recall anything saying that Sauron took any measures to guard the road between Rivendell and the Havens.

Initially the nazgul entering the Shire dispersed, two of them guarding the road leading west.

[One] keeps to the east, passing northwards towards the Marish and Bridge. [One] takes road leading northwest to Michel Delving, and [another] goes with him, but there ?fares on and traverses the North Farthing.] [The other two] go through the central Shire, until they reach the East Road, probably near the Three-Farthing Stone. RC p. 98-99, Marquette MSS 4/2/36

The Witch-King anticipated the move either to Rivendell or to the Havens.

[The Witch-king] is uncertain what to do. The Bearer seems to be making eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). – RC p. 164, Marquette MSS 4/2/36

I don’t think it meant that Sauron was expecting the Ring to be removed to Valinor, he has simply figured out that the Ringbearer would try to reach one of the nearest Elvish strongholds.

[Valandil]

In response to your question #1, I think it was conjecture.

At the Council of Elrond, it was stated that the Seven were all accounted for - and had either been destroyed by dragon fire, or had been recoved by Sauron.

The problematic part was finding a dragon and getting them to cooperate in destroying the One Ring.

Implication being that dragon fire, and the fires of Mount Doom (perhaps any active volcano would do - but no others were known in the broader area) were considered to be quite a bit hotter than fires that could normally be produced by Men, Elves or Dwarves.

Since it was known that some Dwarven rings had been destroyed by dragon fire, and yet was known that normal fire would have no effect on the One, it was HOPED that the fires of Mount Doom (or a cooperative dragon) would be sufficient to destroy the One.

[Jon S.]

If the fires of Orodruin were hot enough to forge the ring in the first place, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be hot enough to "de-forge" it as well?

[CAB]

Thank you to everyone for your replies.

Concerning Sauron's inability to guess that someone would seek to destroy his Ring (which Coffeehouse, Ingwe, and Gordis all touched on), I say again: This seems very probable, but only for a while, and, I think, that while should have been long past by the time Frodo reached Orodruin.

On its journey towards Mordor, the Ring had passed by arguably the four greatest "good guys" in Middle Earth (Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elrond, and Galadriel). Yet when Sauron heard news concerning the failed ambush after the company left Lorien, it must have been clear that none of these people held the One. Shortly after this Aragorn challenged him, but clearly did so without the Ring. So who was going to wield it against him? Also, wouldn't it seem wiser for whoever would claim the Ring to learn to use it, to master it, in a safe place first (such as Rivendell, such as Lorien) before marching off to meet Sauron, or even before going to the aid of Gondor. The distance between Sauron and the potential new Ringlord was to the Ringlord's advantage. Why so stupidly throw that away? If the person holding the One was deluded by it into overestimating his strength (which would have been very possible), he would have gone south with force, not secretively. Considering all of this, and if Orodruin was the only place the Ring could have been destroyed, Sauron should have at least considered the possibility that the Ring-company's goal was Orodruin. With his intelligence, I don't think he could have been that blind.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

>> 2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

If it's fair to ask this question, then it's equally fair also to ask:

2. Why didn't the Valar come to ME to destroy the Ring?

The answer to my #2 is the answer to your #2.

Jon, I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you are saying here. Saruman obviously had great influence over the Wise (and, by the way, I'm not saying he ordered them not to send the Ring to Valinor, rather he convinced them that to do so would do no good) but if he had any influence over the Valar, it would have been minimal at best.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why did Sauron choose to forge the Ring in the cracks of Doom in the first place – in a cave a good way from Barad-Dur, instead of working on it in a forge by the Dark Tower? There seemed to be a mystical connection between the One and Orodruin, the connection that the other Rings lacked.

As I recall, Sauron chose to dwell in Mordor because of the presence of Orodruin. He was a craftsman and Orodruin was his greatest forge. Why would he make his greatest work somewhere else? Kind of silly point here: All the great rings were mystical. If the One had to be destroyed at the place of its forging (Mount Doom) then why didn't the others have to be destroyed at the forge at Eregion? Again, silly, but really, what is the difference? How could the Wise have known, without having ever "tested" the One, that there was a difference?

Originally Posted by Valandil

In response to your question #1, I think it was conjecture.

Could be, but I still think the source for this conjecture was probably Saruman. He had the needed position, influence, and motivation. I would guess the only reason the Wise knew that dragon-fire could destroy great rings is because dragon-fire had destroyed great rings. They had empirical evidence for this. Before, in near desperation, sending the Ring to Mordor, why not seek more empirical evidence and make quite sure they were not able to unmake it right there in Rivendell? One possible answer is that Saruman convinced them that to do so was impossible.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If the fires of Orodruin were hot enough to forge the ring in the first place, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be hot enough to "de-forge" it as well?

Actually, I'm not sure if it is quite that simple. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that the first people to make steel (in the real world) couldn't generate the temperatures needed to actually melt steel. So, in a sense, they could make it, not destroy it. Another example might be diamonds. The heat and pressure in the Earth creates them, but can this same heat and pressure destroy them?

[Jon S.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
>> 2. Why couldn't the Wise send the Ring to Valinor to be destroyed?

If it's fair to ask this question, then it's equally fair also to ask:

2. Why didn't the Valar come to ME to destroy the Ring?

The answer to my #2 is the answer to your #2.

Jon, I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you are saying here.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Policy of non-interference/involvement (by that point in time).

[Ben V]

Originally Posted by Valandil

In response to your question #1, I think it was conjecture.

At the Council of Elrond, it was stated that the Seven were all accounted for - and had either been destroyed by dragon fire, or had been recoved by Sauron.

The problematic part was finding a dragon and getting them to cooperate in destroying the One Ring.

Implication being that dragon fire, and the fires of Mount Doom (perhaps any active volcano would do - but no others were known in the broader area) were considered to be quite a bit hotter than fires that could normally be produced by Men, Elves or Dwarves.

Since it was known that some Dwarven rings had been destroyed by dragon fire, and yet was known that normal fire would have no effect on the One, it was HOPED that the fires of Mount Doom (or a cooperative dragon) would be sufficient to destroy the One.

Is it not said that not even the fire of Ancalagon the Black could destroy the ring

[Olmer]

Here we are! Another conspiracy theoretician!
This is what happens when you start to ask yourself right questions and try to find right answers.

Wery good questions, CAB!
Something was definitely going on. But what?
Concidering all your questions, Gandalf was involved in a some kind of deceiving game.
Concidering all answers, Sauron couldn't be a such ignorant moron, as he was described in the Red Book of Westmarch.
If you will take in an account an amazing Gandalf's knowledge about what Sauron does and thinks, and what the Ring can and can't do, and Sauron's very lazy activities towards prevention of the Ring's destruction, then in
your answers is surfacing a theory of Gandalf's conspiracy with Sauron, that they were having some common agenda.

I know the thought is a hair-raising and repulsive for many Tolkien lovers, but it is not that far fetched, if you will expatiate on it.

[Earniel]

Noooo, not another conspiracy theory!

Originally Posted by CAB

Because Saruman told them so. He was the most learned among the Wise concerning the great rings (as ironic as that is, since three other members held great rings and he didn't). Saruman was one of Aule's people and a great craftsman, unlike the other members of the Wise. Also there is the power of his voice, his influence. He didn't want the Ring destroyed if it was found, so he made the others believe that it was (almost) impossible to do so.

Interesting theory. This, I think, could definitely be a possibility.

But there are other ways. Is it possible that experiments were indeed carried out on the rings to find out for sure? When Elrond says 'Gandalf revealed to us' he could easily have said 'Saruman' if Saruman was the original source. Is it possible that Gandalf tried to ascertain it for himself then? It is unlikely that Gandalf attempted to experiment with the One ring other than that one time he tossed it in Frodo's hearth-fire. We would have known so as the story is written from Frodo's perspective.

The Dwarf-rings could be destroyed by dragon-fire, but there seem to be distinct classes of magical rings. The Dwarf-rings are not on the same level as the One Ring, and the three Elven rings are also distinct. That the dwarf-rings could be destroyed by dragon-fire doesn't necessarily means this would go for the One Ring as well. Was the impervious nature of the One ring a characteristic of just the One ring, or perhaps any advanced, powerful rings, such as the Elven Rings? That way, the knowledge may have been passed down from the remaining smiths from the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. Elrond did gather those few remaining people and founded Rivendell with them.

If say, other advanced rings also were impervious to anything but the fire from where they were forged, could the Elven rings also be unbreakable? Their power could be broken, but what about the rings themselves? If so, would anyone have experimented on the Elven rings to see if they were truly indestructible? I somehow doubt Elrond and Galadriel would do so. But what of Gandalf? He held Narya and the extent to which he used the ring is not known. So he might have taken a chance with it.

Furthermore, if Saruman is the source of this fact, why would he need to lie about the indestructibility of the One Ring? This can just as easily have been true. As a poet once said: "A truth told with bad intend can surpass all the lies you can invent."

Because Saruman told them so. Saurman was the chief emissary of the Valar in Middle Earth. This put him in a very strong position concerning matters such as this. Gandalf may have questioned that the Valar wouldn't accept the Ring, but he (early on) trusted Saruman, and Saruman, unlike Gandalf, was a disciple of Aule (who would probably have been the one asked to destroy the Ring in Valinor), and again, there is the power of Saruman's influence.

Here I think the theory is less likely than in question 1. Gandalf too came from Valinor, and he would have known just as well how the Valar would react. It may be that Saruman tried to convince the rest of the Council that the Valar wouldn't take the Ring. But since at the time of the Council of Elrond, Saruman's betrayal was known, his word would no longer be trusted.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, they remembered the answer to their first request: Maybe the answer was brought back by the Istari when they came to ME. The answer seemed to encompass both keeping the Ring and destroying it – but was that really the case? Anyway it was Gandalf who finalized the choice, when he told Frodo to bring the Ring to Rivendell – not to the Havens.

This sounds very plausible to me. The sending of the Istari seems to be the only visible action the Valar took against the threat of Sauron, and they were on their own as well: to inspire the people of Middle-earth into action, but not lord over them. In that light it would make sense that the West would not take the One Ring to destroy or keep safe.

[Gordis]

It is unlikely that Gandalf attempted to experiment with the One ring other than that one time he tossed it in Frodo's hearth-fire.

He did attempt it all right - when he sent a certain "burglar" with his "unidentified" Great Ring into the Dragon's lair.
Only Ol' Smaug proved uncooperative.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Only Ol' Smaug proved uncooperative.

Well, he did try, but ol' Smaug's aim proved a bit weak and he only got the hair off Bilbo's head, not his pockets!

[Jon S.]

Had Gandalf truly wanted to test the Smaug's fire theory on the Ring, he would have told Bilbo not to put it on. By then, I find it hard to believe Gandalf did not understand that the ring made Frodo invisible, that's how he escaped the goblins, and that using it again with Smaug was the only real chance Bilbo had of not being toasted by him.

The problem with conspiracy theories - not just this one, conspiracy theories in general - is they typically require a bit too much selectivity on the fact-citing to uphold.

As for Sauron's ignorance and failure to take precautions, there are plenty of real life examples of similar subterfuge that to me could be considered at least equally unlikely in theory to succeed as was the Ringbearer's mission (for example, Operation Entebbe (the successful 1976 Israeli counter-terrorism mission in Uganda but we can all think of more).

[Coffeehouse]

And in the end there will always be plenty of 'loopholes' or inconsistencies which would make good conspiracies, simply because Tolkien himself couldn't be expected to write error-free pieces of literature as grand as his are There will always be numerous inconsistencies in his writings and things he might have overlooked, but I don't think that qualifies as conspiracy material nonetheless

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

And in the end there will always be plenty of 'loopholes' or inconsistencies which would make good conspiracies, simply because Tolkien himself couldn't be expected to write error-free pieces of literature as grand as his are There will always be numerous inconsistencies in his writings and things he might have overlooked, but I don't think that qualifies as conspiracy material nonetheless

Oh, I disagree. Believe me, I don't for a moment think the ideas I've put forth here are what Tolkien had in mind. But conspiracy theories (even conspiracy-free conspiracy theories, such as this one) are fun. It is entertaining to try to see these stories in another, yet still reasonable way. I am sure there are others here who would agree. We are discussing works of fiction here. There is no real truth to find.

[Gordis]

But it is really gratifying when you build a speculation -a conspiracy theory, if you like - and then find out it was exactly what Tolkien himself meant from the start, or what Tolkien himself decided upon later, reconsidering his earlier idea. Such has happened to me only twice - and I was extremely happy.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But it is really gratifying when you build a speculation -a conspiracy theory, if you like - and then find out it was exactly what Tolkien himself meant from the start, or what Tolkien himself decided upon later, reconsidering his earlier idea. Such has happened to me only twice - and I was extremely happy.

I don't doubt that at all. I haven't had the honor yet. Don’t get me wrong, I'm not interested in just throwing out ideas that don't fit the facts of the story or are illogical (which I am sure you know already, Gordis). And yes, there are "facts" within the fictional writings. I'm not really sure how to explain myself. I just don't see the need to have myself overly "tied down" while considering (and being entertained by) a work of fiction.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by CAB

There is no real truth to find.

My point exactly