The Official Languages Thread

[Artanis]

Lovely Chrys! Takk!

[Linaewen]

Eärniel, I have a question that I thought would be too trivial for a PM on its own. How do you pronounce 'Rijksmuseum'? The 'Rijk' is sort of like English 'rake', niet waar? I have no idea how to pronounce the 'museum' bit, what with your weird pronunciation rules and whatnot. Dank je!

Nice to be back in the thread that used to be my favourite haunt here.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Eärniel, I have a question that I thought would be too trivial for a PM on its own. How do you pronounce 'Rijksmuseum'? The 'Rijk' is sort of like English 'rake', niet waar? I have no idea how to pronounce the 'museum' bit, what with your weird pronunciation rules and whatnot. Dank je!

Nice to be back in the thread that used to be my favourite haunt here.

Yes, 'rijk' is a lot like 'rake'. Actually I find that's the toughest sound in the whole word to pronounce in English. 'Museum' is very similar to the English counterpart. Try 'muh-zay-jum'. I gather you liked the exhibition.

PS: I have attempted to attach a microphone to Dave and record something as I had promissed like, ages ago. Now only I have to find proper settings so I sound like me and not some radio with dying batteries.

[Rían]

which sound is the toughest for you? The "k" sound?

[Earniel]

Oh no, the Dutch 'k' is exactly like a 'c' in the English word 'car'. That's one of the easiest.

It's the vowel sounds that can be terrible to explain to English-speaking people. At least, in my experience. There are so few vowels that sound the same in Dutch as in English. Especially the combinations that aren't used in English are hard to find a proper English counterpart-sound. For the Dutch sound 'ui' for example, I have yet to find a suitable English corresponding sound.

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yes, 'rijk' is a lot like 'rake'. Actually I find that's the toughest sound in the whole word to pronounce in English. 'Museum' is very similar to the English counterpart. Try 'muh-zay-jum'. I gather you liked the exhibition.

Do you mean in the whole world? Is it really harder even than the two 'th' sounds?
You don't know the IPA for 'muh-zay-jum', do you? Is the 'uh' like book?
I'm just curious because English speakers tend to pronounce 'ij' as my. So 'Rijk' is pronounced the same way as we would pronounce 'Reich' (the 'ch' is pronounced as 'k' since we don't have that sound)

PS: I have attempted to attach a microphone to Dave and record something as I had promissed like, ages ago. Now only I have to find proper settings so I sound like me and not some radio with dying batteries.

Hahah. That's fine, I didn't even realise you'd promised that!
I'll record something for you as well, if you like.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It's the vowel sounds that can be terrible to explain to English-speaking people. At least, in my experience. There are so few vowels that sound the same in Dutch as in English. Especially the combinations that aren't used in English are hard to find a proper English counterpart-sound. For the Dutch sound 'ui' for example, I have yet to find a suitable English corresponding sound.

That 'ui' is probably the most infamous Dutch sound. You know how we're reading Girl with a Pearl Earring, set in 17th century Holland? You should hear our butchering of Dutch sounds. My friend couldn't stop laughing when she found out how the 'g' in Griet is pronounced.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Do you mean in the whole world?

No, I definitely meant 'word'. I meant that the 'ij' in 'Rijksmuseum' is in my opinion the hardest sound in that particular word to find an English counterpart for.

Is it really harder even than the two 'th' sounds?

Erm, you lost me here...

You don't know the IPA for 'muh-zay-jum', do you?

Ah, crap. No, not immediatly. Oh well, it's hardly different from the English word museum. But if you want to I'll put it in the list of words I promised to pronounce in Dutch for you. [EDIT: try the little orange dictionary, it did come with a pronounciation guide, or so I thought]

Is the 'uh' like book?

It's very similar but I figure it's more like the 'u' in 'ruin'. I think the easiest way of 'divining' Dutch pronounciation is by looking at German (provided one knows that language, of course) since the sounds are in many cases very similar. In any case a lot more alike to German than to English sounds.

Hahah. That's fine, I didn't even realise you'd promised that!
I'll record something for you as well, if you like.

Somewhere in the long mails I promised to record some Dutch words, like my unpronouncable last name, remember? You don't have to record anything if you don't want to, you've sent me some sound bites in the beginning of this year so you don't need to feel obliged. Anyway, I still have to figure out to record properly so hold yer horses...

That 'ui' is probably the most infamous Dutch sound. You know how we're reading Girl with a Pearl Earring, set in 17th century Holland? You should hear our butchering of Dutch sounds. My friend couldn't stop laughing when she found out how the 'g' in Griet is pronounced.

Hahaha, yes you've mentioned that before. I would indeed have loved to hear that conversation.

[Jonathan]

I can understand it's hard to explain Dutch pronunciation but I think you're doing great Eärniel. By your explinations I understand well (I think) how "rijksmuseum" is pronounced. But then it doesn't sound too different when compared to my own language . When I was in Belgium, my teacher said "just pronounce every Dutch name as you would in Swedish and you'll do fine". And we did fine

Speaking of the Rijksmuseum, I saw a few Dutch painters (van Gogh, Rembrandt, Vermeer) at the National Gallery in London. Great stuff.

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Erm, you lost me here...

I had thought you meant the 'ay' sound was the hardest in English, and I wondered whether it was harder than English's two 'th' sounds. Foreigners often have trouble with them.

try the little orange dictionary, it did come with a pronounciation guide, or so I thought

It does indeed, but the dictionary doesn't have an entry for Dutch 'museum', just English. But I think I understand from your explanations anyway, so dankjewel again! Oh, and is the stress on the 'zay'?

I think the easiest way of 'divining' Dutch pronounciation is by looking at German (provided one knows that language, of course) since the sounds are in many cases very similar. In any case a lot more alike to German than to English sounds.

Maybe because I haven't really attempted to learn Dutch yet, but I've found German pronunciation a lot easier than Dutch. Don't worry, I will learn Dutch sometime in the future.

Somewhere in the long mails I promised to record some Dutch words, like my unpronouncable last name, remember?

Oh, yes! How does one pronounce the 'uij' sound in it?

Hahaha, yes you've mentioned that before. I would indeed have loved to hear that conversation.

No, it's scary. 'van Ruijven' can be pronounced 'van Roiven' or 'van Rooiven' or who knows what else.

Who thinks it's time to make Finnish a world language?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

When I was in Belgium, my teacher said "just pronounce every Dutch name as you would in Swedish and you'll do fine". And we did fine

Hahah, I'm not surprised. But somehow it doesn't work the other way around. When I went on a student exchange to Danemark my Danish host student said she could understand much of what we said. Sadly much of what she said in Danish sounded a lot like muttering to us.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

It does indeed, but the dictionary doesn't have an entry for Dutch 'museum', just English.

Crap. Didn't count on that. *adds word on list*

But I think I understand from your explanations anyway, so dankjewel again! Oh, and is the stress on the 'zay'?

We aim to please. And yes.

Maybe because I haven't really attempted to learn Dutch yet, but I've found German pronunciation a lot easier than Dutch. Don't worry, I will learn Dutch sometime in the future.

Honey, German pronounciation is in many cases identical to Dutch. If you learn German pronounciation, you're already half way in Dutch pronounciation as well.

Oh, yes! How does one pronounce the 'uij' sound in it?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hahah, I'm not surprised. But somehow it doesn't work the other way around. When I went on a student exchange to Danemark my Danish host student said she could understand much of what we said. Sadly much of what she said in Danish sounded a lot like muttering to us.

Oh, the poor Danes. I'm going to learn Danish one day just because it has such a terrible reputation. Like they have a 'warm potato' in their mouth or something.
PS it's 'Denmark' and 'pronunciation'

Honey, German pronounciation is in many cases identical to Dutch. If you learn German pronounciation, you're already half way in Dutch pronounciation as well.

Yeah, I guess. Dutch is German without the cases (right?) and spelt very...imaginatively.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!

'Twas but a joke! *Pats Eärniel's back*

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

PS it's 'Denmark' and 'pronunciation'

Thanks, will try to keep it in mind.

Yeah, I guess. Dutch is German without the cases (right?) and spelt very...imaginatively.

Heehee, I like that description. Although don't be fooled; Dutch has some archaic remnants of cases left.

'Twas but a joke! *Pats Eärniel's back*

*awakes screaming from nightmare*

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Heehee, I like that description. Although don't be fooled; Dutch has some archaic remnants of cases left.

Aren't you even going to defend your language?!
Oh, cases... Though English has some weird cases of its own too, e.g. 'It is him' <-- accusative case instead of nominative like other languages.
Did you read that article on Finnish? I can't recall which language has some 16 cases... Some African language has dozens of cases. Eep.

*awakes screaming from nightmare*

Hahah, people spell my surname wrong all the time, but do you think I go around making such a fuss? Honestly, those chocolate frogs Jon keeps giving you are making you a bit funny.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Aren't you even going to defend your language?!

Why need to defend it? You said my language was imaginative. To a language, I consider that a compliment.

Hahah, people spell my surname wrong all the time, but do you think I go around making such a fuss?

It's one of my pet peeves. If you see that half of the letters you received in your life-time have your name spelt wrong, you start to think someone's doing it on purpose. One of my friends is constantly teasing me about it, after a *cough*little tantrum*cough* I threw at finding my own college wrote my last name wrong. (Although, should I find it wrong on the diploma I hopefully receive in January, there WILL be hell to pay, and it may involve a plastic gecko) Besides compared to some Dutch and Belgian last name, mine is peanuts.

Honestly, those chocolate frogs Jon keeps giving you are making you a bit funny.

Oh no, I never needed chocolate frogs to be that!

No, wait, that didn't come out right...

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hahah, I'm not surprised. But somehow it doesn't work the other way around. When I went on a student exchange to Danemark my Danish host student said she could understand much of what we said. Sadly much of what she said in Danish sounded a lot like muttering to us.

C'est impossible Ã* comprendre les danois quand ils parlent. Je croix que les Flamands peuvent prononcer les noms suédois et norvègien beaucoup plus facillement que les noms danois. Même si le danois resemble le suédois beaucoup, l'accent danois est très difficile pour moi Ã* comprendre. Donc, je n'ai pas des problèmes Ã* comprendre le danois parlé dans un accent islandais . En Islande, on enseigne le danois dans les écoles mais les islandais ont un accent naturel qui est plus clair (et Ã* mon avi plus beau) que cela des danois

[Earniel]

Fraiement? Je n'avais aucune idée. On apprend quelque chose tous les jours. Tu sais, pour moi tous les languages scandinaviennes sont les mêmes. Je ne peux pas dire la difference. Je pense que, pour moi, elles sonnent tout comme le chef suédois du muppet show.

[Andúril]

Muppet show, I picked that up.

[Jonathan]

Bork, bork, bork!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

.... For the Dutch sound 'ui' for example, I have yet to find a suitable English corresponding sound.

Sometimes there just aren't any, and people have to learn how to make new sounds. I had a great German teacher, and he taught me the German vowel combinations, for which there are no equivalents in English. He just kept repeating them right in my face, and I kept putting out noises until I got them right.

[Earniel]

You could be right, I remember one instance where I and some class mates were listening to a muslim clasmate talking about her family. We tried to pronounce some of the names of her family members but there were some very gutteral sounds that we just couldn't really get our tongue around. Of course, we thought we were getting close while our friend looked at us with a mixture of amusement and downright pity.