REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Rían]

And one more thing on the prayer to saints issue - I know that I ask my friends to pray for me, in addition to asking God Himself for help, so I can see that you might want to ask those that have died (knowing that they are indeed alive) to pray for you in the same way (and perhaps in some senses, a better way, because they aren't encumbered by sin anymore. But they can't keep you accountable, either, can they?!)

I came across this interesting section in G. K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy, where he was talking about democracy (in terms of different classes of people) and tradition:

But there is one thing that I have never from my youth up been able to understand. I have never been able to understand where people got the idea that democracy was in some way opposed to tradition. It is obvious that tradition is only democracy extended through time. .... Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father. ... The ancient Greeks voted by stones; these shall vote by tombstones. It is all quite regular and official, for most tombstones, like most ballot papers, are marked with a cross.

Interesting, isn't it?

[hawaiidevil]

I'm impressed that a 16 year old (HAPPY BIRTHDAY) has handled themselves so well (except for with Arien *shakes finger*) in this den of wolves! (tosses Ruinel a raw steak)

Hee Hee Hee

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I have been for the first seveteen years of my life a Christian of non-denominational teaching and affiliation. At around that point in time, I determined to no longer accept what I had been taught by itself, but to search the Scriptures, and determine from there the Truth of the matter. A bad move, I think; look at where private interpretation has gotten the Protestants! But happily, one that ended well.

The first matter I looked into was that of Communion. After looking into the Scriptures, I found that it seems to me that Scripture supports the Real Presence, and the blessing of Communion more than the empty "Symbolic Reminder" I had been brought up on. After that, I began to look seriously into the Roman Catholic Church, and, to a lesser degree, the Orthodox Church; and so, I went from one teacher of doctrine to another, that which I believe to be the TRUE teacher. I discovered, to my shock and amazement, that the Catholic Church was NOT in fact completely indefensible from Scripture as I had been raised to believe (I'd always been awed at the fact that every single medieval priest until Luther was so corrupt and power-hungry), and indeed is very much defensible. I am at this point pretty well a Roman Catholic in belief, though still with non-denominational inclinations (I call nondenominational "the denomination in denial" purely out of affection! , but am not yet able to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Brill 1: Incorrect. The Muslims do in fact worship the same God as Jews and Christians. The three religions only have different view on Him. I think it could be summarized by saying that Muslims worship the God of Abraham; the Jewish people worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter, and Paul.

Brill 2: Catholics not Christians; hah! Catholics have been followers of Christ for far longer than "Biblicists". It is to them that you owe the doctrine of the Trinity, among many others. Indeed, it was the Church (which was either Catholic or Orthodox, though exactly which is debatable) which gave you the Bible you know today.

Also, I notice that you say you believe in the Bible. I presume that you mean you believe in your private interpretation of the Bible, correct? You don't really believe, for example, that the Church is "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)? There are hundreds, even thousands of Christian churches; and nearly all of them claim to be guided by Scripture (though the fact may be different for individuals). Yet they all believe different things. I must say, the track record of Private Interpretation isn't too good.

I don't think you can get absolution from anyone but God.

Out of curiosity, why do you think Christ gave His apostles the authority to forgive sins in the end of the Gospel of Mark?

Also, it is a priest who acts in persona Christi to forgive sins, not the Pope. If that were the case, imagine the waiting lines...

As a minor point: the rending of the veil allowed all the access the Father, not the Son, and it is, as I said, in persona Christi, not Patris that a priest acts in the sacraments of the Eucharist and Confession. Not to indicate that He is not open to all; on the contrary. Just a minor note. I would say that I intend to go to confession when I am received into the Church, because that is what Jesus would have me do.

I could go on for quite some time, but first let me ask a question; and I ask this in all sincerity and honesty, because quite frankly, the answer for many people would the latter.

I would also point out that you were a Catholic only for your younger years, and not a great time at that. Therefore, I think that you are not exactly the best source of knowledge for Catholic teaching.

Do you truly believe that all of these railing accusations and damnations to hell you bring against the Catholic Church (for instance, Papal idolatry, though I have no idea where THAT one came from) are true, and are you willing to discuss them with people who know a good deal about the Catholic Faith? Or is your anti-Catholicism of a nature that you don't realy believe it, but merely will use anything against Catholics?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian:
The Scriptures tell us to confess our sins often, yes; but I would say more that Scriptural "basis" (though that term isn't really appropriate) is at the passage at the end of Mark I cited, where He gave the disciples the authority to forgive and retain sins.

The example you give is indeed the sort of "praying to saints" that is, I think, by far the most common. Asking for saintly intercession as well as intercession is also practiced. I think this is illustrated by the story of the centurion with the ill servant. "I too am over many...I say to my servant "Do this and he does it."

A short thing on saintly intercession:

Why pray to Saints? Is it not better to pray to God direct?

Not always. The same answer applies here as in the case of prayers to the Virgin Mary, who after all is the greatest of the Saints. God may wish to give certain favors through the intercession of some given Saint. In such a case, it is better to seek the intercession of that Saint as God wishes. I can decide to give you a gift myself, or to do so through a friend. In the latter case you do me greater honor by accepting it from my friend than by refusing my way of giving it to you, and insolently demanding it directly from myself in person.

Also, being an engineer, I appreciate efficiency, and I think it's more efficient to go directly to God yourself!

I agree, to some extent. I think that the prayer of someone in Paradise has more power than the prayer of someone on earth. However, if someone does not care enough about something to pray to God, as well as asking a saint (or saints) to pray for them, this is sloth, and I doubt very highly that their prayer would be granted. One should always pray to God first, and only after ask the saints to intercede as well.

It is also true that a saint cannot keep you accountable. Well, they probably COULD, but they don't. We must rely upon fellow members of "Church Triumphant" for this. One's confessor is especially important for this task; no one knows your faults as deeply as he.

Indeed, that was a very interesting passage. I liked the one about Christ: Egoist or Altruist? more, though.

P. S. Brill 3:

I just wonder why I am the only person being questioned for their beliefs and why the known catholics aren't.

What exactly do you mean by that?

[Arien the Maia]

I am at this point pretty well a Roman Catholic in belief, though still with non-denominational inclinations (I call nondenominational "the denomination in denial" purely out of affection! , but am not yet able to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Gwai, what are your non denominational inclinations? Why can't you full be in communion with the Catholic Church yet?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, Brill, now I understand why you're getting flamed

Where do you see Brill getting flamed?

I agree with the rest of what you said about Arien, she is intelligent and is always kind.

Originally posted by hawaiidevil
...in this den of wolves! (tosses Ruinel a raw steak)

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Nice to see you Gwai.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Where do you see Brill getting flamed?

Brill herself complained about getting flamed on another thread; can't recall which one - maybe Entmoot rules?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Arien; I suppose you could say in a way that I am in belief a "charismatic Catholic", though I don't approve of Charismatic Masses. I also have probably a greater empathy for Charismatics/Nondenominationals/Evangelicals/Fundamentalists/et al than most. And...um...there's more, but I can't formulate it in my simple human mind.

As to why I can't be yet; well, first I need to go through RCIA, and it's too late to join this year. I'll have to wait until next year to take RCIA (and that's assuming I can find a church that has it in English here), and God willing, I will be a Roman Catholic the Easter Vigil after that.

Nice to see you, too, Ruinel. Looks like you've managed to find some time for the 'Moot after all. Kinda like me.

P. S. Brill, a term I've hear used which you might use is "Bible Christian."

[Arien the Maia]

[i]Originally posted by Ruinel

I agree with the rest of what you said about Arien, she is intelligent and is always kind.

awwww thanks!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Arien; I suppose you could say in a way that I am in belief a "charismatic Catholic", though I don't approve of Charismatic Masses. I also have probably a greater empathy for Charismatics/Nondenominationals/Evangelicals/Fundamentalists/et al than most. And...um...there's more, but I can't formulate it in my simple human mind.

As to why I can't be yet; well, first I need to go through RCIA, and it's too late to join this year. I'll have to wait until next year to take RCIA (and that's assuming I can find a church that has it in English here), and God willing, I will be a Roman Catholic the Easter Vigil after that.

What is a Charismatic Mass?

Yes, it's a bummer that RCIA is only once a year...my husband is going to probably join RCIA next year too.

as for empathy towards fundamentalists and etc.... I have some My husband is technically still a non-denominational Christian and my Dad and most of his family are Seventh Day Adventists...I can understand why they believe what they believe to an extent.

[Giroth]

Ruinel,
I have discussed my desire to go to church
with my parents.My mother is also a christian,
but my dad isn't,of course.
And if you knew my dad,you would know when NO MEANS NO.................*sigh

[Gwaimir Windgem]

A charismatic Mass is when they turn a Mass into basically the same as a charismatic service. Not that I really dislike charismatic services, but the Mass is an extremely sacred moment, which I think should not be trivialized.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
A charismatic Mass is when they turn a Mass into basically the same as a charismatic service. Not that I really dislike charismatic services, but the Mass is an extremely sacred moment, which I think should not be trivialized.

have you been to alot of charismatic masses? I can't recall where I've been to a Mass that wasn't treated as very sacred. There is one Mass where I live that is a Teen Mass...it's way more modern and no offense to anyone but very Protestant in nature...lots of modern musical instruments and music and all. I usually avoid it but when I was in high school alot of people I knew loved to go to it. I guess I just like the old fashion music of organs and such.

[zinnite]

For those of us unfamiliar with the syle, what exactly does "charismatic" mean? I heard the term or years, but have never seen a description. I'm assuming it's more Evengelical-like...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Arien: I haven't been to any, actually. I've just heard about them, both from pros and cons. I'll stick with you in the old-fashioned group.

zinnite: Charismatic, is yes, pretty much the same as a Evangelical, Nondenominational, Pentecostal, etc., to the best of my knowledge. To answer your question...hmm...well, the way I can best describe the music is to say "Have you seen Sister Act?" That's pretty close to what Charismatic music sounds like. Also, charismatic services have a pretty strong tendency towards the opposite of Catholic, i.e. there is a lot of moving going on, and it's almost boisterous, for lack of a better word. But really, I don't think one can truly understand it without experiencing the whole thing.

Hope this helps.

[Valandil]

My own church is not "Charismatic" in the sense the word is generally used today. To the best of my knowledge, the term refers to Protestant Churches which emphasize a separate distinct filling of the Holy Spirit after the person has received forgiveness from their sins - and which is accompanied by speaking in "tongues" (an unknown language). This generally includes Pentecostals (from Pentecost - see Acts chapter 2 for the first Pentecost Sunday - and why this is a sign). Some few charismatic groups have other practices - such as "snake-handling" but these are rare. Most Pentecostal services are very upbeat and lively - those who are not used to it would probably think the people were being overly emotional - they consider themselves to be in tune with the Holy Spirit in their worship. There is generally also widespread acceptance of faith-healing and other visible manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I think the Assemblies of God is one of the larger Charismatic churches (and AGer's out there? Is that a valid statement?), another is The Vineyard. A good number of independent churches seem to have Charismatic elements.

As I understand it, there is some kind of Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church - which has been going on for some time (at least 20-30 years). I don't know a lot about it. I think it involves emphasis on faith-healing to some extent though - I don't know what else - or if "speaking in tongues" is practiced.

My own church is in a slightly different line - the Wesleyan-Armenian group of churches that teach a distinct filling of the Holy Spirit after the work of salvation, but which do not emphasize speaking in tongues.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil
My own church is not "Charismatic" in the sense the word is generally used today. To the best of my knowledge, the term refers to Protestant Churches which emphasize a separate distinct filling of the Holy Spirit after the person has received forgiveness from their sins - and which is accompanied by speaking in "tongues" (an unknown language). This generally includes Pentecostals (from Pentecost - see Acts chapter 2 for the first Pentecost Sunday - and why this is a sign). Some few charismatic groups have other practices - such as "snake-handling" but these are rare. Most Pentecostal services are very upbeat and lively - those who are not used to it would probably think the people were being overly emotional - they consider themselves to be in tune with the Holy Spirit in their worship. There is generally also widespread acceptance of faith-healing and other visible manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I think the Assemblies of God is one of the larger Charismatic churches (and AGer's out there? Is that a valid statement?), another is The Vineyard. A good number of independent churches seem to have Charismatic elements.

As I understand it, there is some kind of Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church - which has been going on for some time (at least 20-30 years). I don't know a lot about it. I think it involves emphasis on faith-healing to some extent though - I don't know what else - or if "speaking in tongues" is practiced.

My own church is in a slightly different line - the Wesleyan-Armenian group of churches that teach a distinct filling of the Holy Spirit after the work of salvation, but which do not emphasize speaking in tongues.

What denomination are you Valandil? It sounds like you might be Catholic or Eastern Catholic.

[Valandil]

Arien, no - mine is actually a Protestant church - but I'll definitely take that as a compliment since you're Catholic.

It's called "The Church of the Nazarene" - referring to Jesus the Nazarene. Smaller denomination than the more prominent ones - but widespread enough. Almost 100 years old, just over a million members worldwide (I think half or more overseas - we're very commited to missions - and are now in around 140 countries).

Teachings - we look to John Wesley, who is also considered the father of Methodism. Some years back, people who thought the Methodist Church was backing off from some of Wesley's teachings splintered off, forming various "holiness" groups. A number of those eventually came together to form our church.

One description I heard was, "Methodist in doctrine, Baptist in practice" - might fit well enough.

Stylistically, what I've seen is all up and down the scale from traditional services to more contemporary - varies by each local church.

Definitely evangelistic, Bible-based, strong belief in each person's need to be "born again" (words of Jesus in John 3) - with an emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit. I think our early church leaders shied away from the "tongues" movement though.

Nice website at nazarene.org - if I can say that here...? [EDIT: if Ruinel, an Admin or a moderator objects to this being here, I'll edit it out and invite mooters to PM me for the web site]

I'm not a theologian, but I've tried to learn what we teach. I "found the Lord" myself in a Church of the Nazarene as a teenager - and stuck with it since. Have only been a member of three churches - one each at hometown, college town and here.

Probably longer answer than you wanted... but a lot of people are still unfamiliar with us - so maybe this anticipates follow-up questions.

[Arien the Maia]

Valandil: thanks My cousin's sister-in-law goes to a Nazarene Church. do you believe in an immortal soul? I was in a religious discussion with my cousin (who is a seventh day adventist and doesn't believe that we have immortal souls) and she was under the impression that the Church of the Nazarene doesn't believe in immortal souls either.

[Valandil]

Yes, we do believe that souls are immortal. Interesting... I didn't even know that about 7th Day Adventists. (any Adventists out there to confirm or deny, btw?)

Our church actually accepts all the standard mainstream teachings. We accept the Apostles Creed, for instance. We haven't added anything to, or taken anything away from scripture - or come up with any ideas that are contrary to predominant, traditional Christian teachings. We are Christ-centered, with an emphasis on the Holy Spirit - but it's nothing unorthodox.