Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is just sad beyond words. You know, when I read the LOTR and The Hobbit, I got a different vision. Both Bilbo and Frodo could have killed Gollum. In fact, Bilbo almost did it, but there was something inside him that changed his mind. It's a thing called pity. It was because of that that the quest could be achieved. Evil deserves hate? Not in the world of JRRT. That is what makes it fascinating to me, the idea of redemption.
Manwë is indeed wiser, because he can see more clearly the mind of Ilúvatar.
So hate is not evil. Such evil deserves hate. That is what Fëanor did, he met the evil of Morgoth with hate. It seems that you have more in common with the person that you hate than I would ever have.
Isn't that ironic and sad.

Actually, Hate is not a sin or evil in and of itself. God is said to hate the sin and love the sinner. So, Hate is indeed the appropriate response to Evil. Feanor, however much you like him, was marred by the Evil within him, able to murder his kinsmen and disrupt the lives of countless more, all because of material goods, admittedly very beautiful stones, which seemed to have the virtue of letting Earendil get to Aman. This is classed as Worshipping False Gods, and puts him forever beyond the pale in my sight. If he had ever repented, I might feel differently, but, he did not.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Attalus
Actually, Hate is not a sin or evil in and of itself. God is said to hate the sin and love the sinner. So, Hate is indeed the appropriate response to Evil. Feanor, however much you like him, was marred by the Evil within him, able to murder his kinsmen and disrupt the lives of countless more, all because of material goods, admittedly very beautiful stones, which seemed to have the virtue of letting Earendil get to Aman. This is classed as Worshipping False Gods, and puts him forever beyond the pale in my sight. If he had ever repented, I might feel differently, but, he did not.

But then, who defines evil? I am not a christian, so I cannot say I care for that quote. It's probably relevant, since Tolkien was a christian. But I remember Jesus said that you shall love your enemies, and I think Tolkien wrote more from that point of view.

I can't say I've ever heard of him not repenting. On the other hand I've never heard that he did, either, but I think that after some time in Mandos he would repent. He was "marred by the evil within him" indeed, but I believe I've read somewhere that all marring could be healed in Mandos...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
But then, who defines evil? I am ot a christian, so I cannot say I care for that quote. But I remember Jesus said that you shall love your enemy.

I can't say I've ever heard of him not repenting. On the other hand I've never heard that he did, either, but I think that after some time in Mandos, he repented.

I'm not a Christian either, Falagar. So, let me define 'evil': harmful or injurous to others (ie, The Kinslaying); anything that causes harm to others (bringing the Noldor from Valinor); morally wrong or bad (greed, which was against the nature of the Noldor to begin with).

Is this enough?

[Falagar]

I'm not a Christian either, Falagar. So, let me define 'evil': harmful or injurous to others (ie, The Kinslaying); anything that causes harm to others (bringing the Noldor from Valinor); morally wrong or bad (greed, which was against the nature of the Noldor to begin with).

I've never said that Fëanor didn't do evil (I've even stated the opposite), but I was speaking more generally (actually, I was planning to bring politics into it, but thought the better of it ).

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I've never said that Fëanor didn't do evil (I've even stated the opposite), but I was speaking more generally (actually, I was planning to bring politics into it, but thought the better of it ).

Love your enemies... then they humiliate you and crucify you quite publicly... that's the thanks? No, thanks.
If the world had that attitude in WWII, there would be no more Jews in the world, mentally handicapped people would be killed at the first sign of their 'imperfections', homosexuals would be killed if they were ever found out, and the world would be a living hell! You may thank whatever god or gods you believe in that the world did not take a Christian view of Hilter. (ooops, politics and religion... two subjects to stay plenty clear of. Sorry!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
Actually, Hate is not a sin or evil in and of itself. God is said to hate the sin and love the sinner.

But isn't that exactly what Frodo and Bilbo was able to do (Gollum), but Galadriel and Fëanor could not? They hated both the sin and the sinner.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Love your enemies... then they humiliate you and crucify you quite publicly... that's the thanks? No, thanks.
If the world had that attitude in WWII, there would be no more Jews in the world, mentally handicapped people would be killed at the first sign of their 'imperfections', homosexuals would be killed if they were ever found out, and the world would be a living hell! You may thank whatever god or gods you believe in that the world did not take a Christian view of Hilter. (ooops, politics and religion... two subjects to stay plenty clear of. Sorry!)

Must...resist...

But Tolkien was a christian, and probably lived (and wrote, as you can see in his works) after those lines.

That's actually an argument for Fëanor He attacked and hated his enemy, who was planning to make the world a living hell. If he hadn't done what he did (even if it wasn't in his intention) there would be no more CÃ*rdan.

I think the difference here is that Tolkien's philosofy was not attack when you don't have to. Frodo didn't have to attack Gollum, and he didn't.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
(1) Must...resist...

(2)But Tolkien was a christian, and probably lived (and wrote, as you can see in his works) after those lines.

(3) That's actually an argument for Fëanor He attacked his enemy.
I think the difference here is that Tolkien's philosofy was not attack when you don't have to.

(1) ??? ??? Resist what??
(2) I know JRRT was a Christian (actually, a Catholic) and I know that he wrote (especially in his later years) with the same Christian values and morality that he was raised on. I was trying to define 'evil' from a humanistic perspective, not Christian perspective.
(3) And that should be everyone's philosophy. Do not turn a blind eye to the injustices and evils of the world, but stand and defend those that need to be defended, your brothers and sisters in humanity.
But Fëanor's reasons were not so noble. In fact they were quite the opposite. He reasons were for his own personal gain and for his own pride and for revenge for evils against himself only. He was not coming to the rescue of those that suffered in ME before he came to it. His heart and mind were bent upon only one thing: get the Silmarils from Melkor. That is not a noble cause.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Attalus
Actually, Hate is not a sin or evil in and of itself. God is said to hate the sin and love the sinner. So, Hate is indeed the appropriate response to Evil. Feanor, however much you like him, was marred by the Evil within him, able to murder his kinsmen and disrupt the lives of countless more, all because of material goods, admittedly very beautiful stones, which seemed to have the virtue of letting Earendil get to Aman. This is classed as Worshipping False Gods, and puts him forever beyond the pale in my sight. If he had ever repented, I might feel differently, but, he did not.

Not in the JRRT mythos.
From Ósanwe-kenta

How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.

Hate will never be the appropiate response.

I think Fëanor was a necessary evil to make the stories work. His story was the basis for nearly the entire Sil. But I refuse to put him up on a pedestal and to say that Fëanor was a great Elf only because he made the Silmarils and took a whole people away from Valinor and ignore the terrible things that his character did would not be right.

What happened to the FATE arguement?
It is interesting that the people who really dislike Fëanor, are the ones who would treat him the same way that he treated Morgoth. Fight fire with fire then.

[Attalus]

Actually, we are hating a purely literary creation in a literary way. We did not kill or cause to be killed our kinsmen, rebel against our God because of a few bits of Elvish glass, and desert our followers to hardship and death. We are free to react to Feanor with hatred, or dislike, if the word is better, because we are not in JRRT's cosmos. We are in what we call the real world, and to me, at least, the actions of Feanor were wrong, despicible, and to be roundly condemned, especially since he never repented.

[Falagar]

We are in what we call the real world, and to me, at least, the actions of Feanor were wrong, despicible, and to be roundly condemned, especially since he never repented.

Can you give me the quote were it says that he never repented? (of course, he never repented in life but he may have done so in the halls of Mandos. Unless you have read something else)

[Rían]

Wow, lots of complex topics here... this might take a few posts to finish...

re the "love your enemies" quote -
it goes on to say "and pray for those that persecute you." There's several ideas behind this, IMHO (as a long-time Christian) - I'll have to extremely over-simplify, but...

(1) The main idea behind this, IMO, is - it's never right to hate a person, but just the wrong things they do. Praying for your enemies is a way to love them, which is always right. I think righteous anger is perfectly justified - cf. Jesus chasing the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip of cords, because their actions distorted what the temple represented. Cf. also an interesting verse in the Bible that says "Be angry, and yet do not sin...." (Ephesians 4:26). So anger in itself is not wrong, it's what you're angry about (e.g., "she's prettier than I am" would be wrong; "that guy just hit that little kid" would be appropriate), AND what you DO as a result of the anger (e.g., helping the little kid out would be right).
I never 'hated' the character of Fëanor; as I've said before, the main emotion I have when I think about him is sorrow. But I am properly angry with the terrible things he did. And his bad ACTIONS seem to come out of his bad ATTITUDES, which is usually the order of things.

(2) re the practical aspect of loving your enemies - I've found that a person that you hate/are angry with/can't forgive, has power over you - you are constantly fuming over them, etc. Now, praying for them and loving them (I'm not talking about mushy, loving feelings here, but the concrete acts of love, such as kindness, prayer, etc.) breaks that power. I've been really mad at a few 'Mooters here on occasion, and when I stop and pray for God to bless them and help them in whatever difficult circumstances they're in, it just seems to break the anger cycle. And if I'm mad at someone near me (as opposed to on the Internet), then I can do more concrete acts of kindness (if I'm mad at my husband, I can choose to make a special effort to make his favorite dinner that night as an act of love, for example). The goal of loving your enemies is to bring good to them, which is always right.

Also -- I've always liked Finarfin's reaction to Fëanor - it says in the Shibboleth that Finarfin chose how to speak (thorn/not thorn sound) based on what he, himself, thought was RIGHT - NOT based on being on Fëanor's side, or showing up Fëanor, etc. I think that's the right way to choose. Also, Finarfin chose to leave Valinor for love of his people, which is also a good motive. Fëanor seemed to choose to leave Valinor for love of the Silmarils. The anger that Fëanor felt due to their being stolen was right and appropriate, IMO (he was indeed the victim of a terrible crime), but the actions he chose based on that anger were wrong.

Also #2 -- BTW, "then they humiliate you and crucify you quite publicly" - the crucifixion of Jesus was a CHOICE made by him, to bring about a way of reconciliation to God - it is quite clearly stated that he could at any time have called legions of angels to his aid; also, when he chose, his mere words would knock people to the ground (as right before He was betrayed) - it is clear He CHOSE to let this happen.

Christians are NOT to be doormats, but powerful agents for GOOD. "Turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemies" is NEVER to be a doormat type of thing, IMO, but a choice made when it will bring good to another person, even at your expense. And also it seems to be only referring to a PERSONAL wrong - you don't "turn the other cheek" for someone doing wrong to someone else.

Hope this wasn't too OT, but I thought it was applicable to the discussion.

[Falagar]

Another point, I think, is that Fëanor never forced his people (or could have done so) to go with him.
True, he had a very powerful voice, but many of the Elves (among them Finarfin) were not swayed by his words.
Thus, I think they had a lust for going to M-E already before Fëanor showed up, and his words persuaded them.

However, the Kinslaying was a completely free-will thing, though his words were "still burning hot within them".
The Elves of Fëanors host could have turned and walked away, but they didn't.

[Rían]

ps - Maedhros, I love that quote from Ósanwe-kenta:

How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Falagar
Another point, I think, is that Fëanor never forced his people (or could have done so) to go with him. True, he had a very powerful voice, but many of the Elves (among them Finarfin) were not swayed by his words. Thus, I think they had a lust for going to M-E already before Fëanor showed up, and his words persuaded them.

Yes, I think that's very true, Falagar - I would say they definitely had a desire to go to ME, and Fëanor's speech made them "imprudently" decide to follow thru with that desire (IOW, I think they could have gone to ME in a better way, and with a better motive/attitude, instead of the "oh, the heck with it - let's take off!" attitude they seemed to have).

I'd probably give a little more credit to Fëanor's words than you would, though, in getting them on the road, because he was so nervous about the Noldor "cooling down" and changing their minds, but that 's just a difference of opinion about a matter of degree of influence.

I think Finarfin was pretty exceptional in not being influenced by Fëanor, though.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Falagar
Can you give me the quote were it says that he never repented? (of course, he never repented in life but he may have done so in the halls of Mandos. Unless you have read something else)

Just "...Feanor bid them halt, for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin, he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-Earth, and he knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it onto his sons to hold to their oath, and avenge their father." Nothing of repentence, there. Of what might have happened in the Halls of Mandos, I know nothing.

[Falagar]

Artanis just gave a quote from The Prophecy of Mandos:

Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Eärendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, aso that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them.

Though I don't know how much we can thrust it, Tolkien may have rejected it later...

[Attalus]

Falagar - as you, I am not sure how much to trust it. I would dearly love for it to be true, but, ???

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Wow...that's a beautiful passage to envision...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Artanis just gave a quote from The Prophecy of Mandos:

Thanks Falagar, I was about to post it here, but then I was interrupted.