Why you believe what you believe I

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

About this... I believe it'd be the same to put 'gay' instead of 'selfish and lazy' only if you think gays can change.. and I personally don't think they can. Therefore, if god made you a gay, you'll be a gay to the rest of your life - without a choice, but if you're lazy, you can change, and start helping others...
Unless you think they can?

That's a really good point. I think a lot of sexuality experts agree that it's virtually impossible to change one's sexual orientation. So you could argue that God "made" people that way, couldn't you?

I think that to a Christian also needs to believe that Jesus died for our salvation, thus giving us eternal life in Heaven. Actually, probably most of the what's detailed in the Nicene Creed are fundamental Christian beliefs.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

That's a really good point. I think a lot of sexuality experts agree that it's virtually impossible to change one's sexual orientation. So you could argue that God "made" people that way, couldn't you?

Well the experiments of trying to condition gay people to become straight failed as far as I know. I certainly believe any such attempt would fail. It is hard to determine the results of such studies. At least being gay is no longer classified as a mental illness.

I think that to a Christian also needs to believe that Jesus died for our salvation, thus giving us eternal life in Heaven. Actually, probably most of the what's detailed in the Nicene Creed are fundamental Christian beliefs.

I agree completely! I actually had this in my original post, but I forgot to put it in my hastier redraft (my first post was accidentally erased).
I didn't think to include the Nicene Creed, but it's (of course) perfect! Maybe the Lord's Prayer as well. We used to sing it in my congregation, to the most beautiful tune.

Originally Posted by inked

Nuvingiel,

you wrote, "I don't know any historically defined concepts of Christian. Care to share some? "

I do not for a moment accept that dodge! You allege to be Anglican and you have not recited the Creeds?

Now, I too am Anglican, but they made me take Inquirer's classes/Confirmation classes.

You should know some history! 'fess up!!

Well we didn't have Confirmation in my chuch until I left for university, so ha! (Now I think they have it, as a voluntary class.)

My religious knowledge is very, very small. My spiritual knowledge is a little more abundant. I've forgotten most of the hymns and prayers that I used to know, since I haven't attended a church service in ages! I'm also not sure what you mean by historically defined concept.
Do you mean, by the Creeds, the Nicene Creed that Linaewen so kindly linked for us?
I also don’t know much of the history of Anglicanism, except that it was started by Henry VIII during his reign for various reasons, some good some bad.

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

What are your thoughts on prayer and angels?

I believe prayer is important and wonderful. Prayer and faith are very strongly linked. I also think God hears everyone’s prayers, no matter what religion they are when they make them. In fact, the hopes and dreams of people who aren’t religious are also important to God – this is a lot like prayer. How, if, and when God answers your prayer are not always obvious. I say “if� because I don’t think all prayers are answered. If they were, why would a child die when their parents are praying so much at their side? In less serious situations, perhaps we’re praying for the wrong thing anyway.

I also believe that angels are good, spiritual beings, but after that I have no idea what angels are like. I do believe strongly that it’s more complex (and perhaps less anthropocentric) than “Touched by an Angel� or any movie made about angels.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But in this example, you jumped from "Bob" to "people". I didn't, in my example.

Good point. I was going to add something, but perhaps we’ve talked enough about this example now anyway.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Well the experiments of trying to condition gay people to become straight failed as far as I know. I certainly believe any such attempt would fail. It is hard to determine the results of such studies. At least being gay is no longer classified as a mental illness.

hurray!! so i'm not mad

how could anyone conceive such an idea?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

About this... I believe it'd be the same to put 'gay' instead of 'selfish and lazy' only if you think gays can change.. and I personally don't think they can. Therefore, if god made you a gay, you'll be a gay to the rest of your life - without a choice, but if you're lazy, you can change, and start helping others...
Unless you think they can?

I'll provide a link to the Gay/Les thread - I just explained it a bit there. link: here

I think the tendency towards homosexuality can be greatly reduced, just like my tendency towards laziness and selfishness can be greatly reduced, through God's help and healing. But just like I think I'll probably battle with laziness all my life, I think a homosexual will battle with homosexual urges all their life. It's a very deep area in a person's life. But God is deeper ....

I think the tendencies can be reduced, and the acting on the tendencies can be reduced, and even stopped. And the only reason a person would even attempt to reduce/heal a tendency in ANY area is if they think it is wrong.

And BTW, gossip is in the same list as homosexuality as examples of wrong things. I don't think a homosexual is specially "wrong" or "bad" at all - I think they are precious, valuable people, loved by God, and the loving includes telling us what is harmful and wrong in us, and providing help and healing for it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Good point. I was going to add something, but perhaps we’ve talked enough about this example now anyway.

My point in the example was that "made" doesn't imply "intend", if the making involves things like free will. IOW, yes, God made us, but part of our making was giving us free will, which means we can choose to act against what God would intend and desire for us (within limits that God allows). And also that actually we are NOT made in God's image in the same way as Adam and Eve were - after the Fall (Adam and Eve choosing to sin), they were changed and had a sin nature, and the Bible says that their child was in their image (i.e., had a sin nature). And that's where our sin tendencies come from. God's desire was that mankind NOT sin, but we did (which God knew would happen, and provided for). So yes, God made me, but did not intend for me to be selfish, altho He allowed it and provided a way to heal it. Does that make sense?

[Nurvingiel]

Oh I see what you mean now. Thanks RÃ*an!

Let's keep any further discussion going in the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread... official as of... now.

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

hurray!! so i'm not mad

how could anyone conceive such an idea?

I know! I think you're mad for other reasons.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How, if, and when God answers your prayer are not always obvious. I say “if� because I don’t think all prayers are answered. If they were, why would a child die when their parents are praying so much at their side? In less serious situations, perhaps we’re praying for the wrong thing anyway.

But the child that died would be in a much happier place. The parents would be gireved, but they would see their child again when they too left this world.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I also believe that angels are good, spiritual beings, but after that I have no idea what angels are like. I do believe strongly that it’s more complex (and perhaps less anthropocentric) than “Touched by an Angel� or any movie made about angels.

But not all angels are good. Don't forget about Satin and his angels.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

But not all angels are good. Don't forget about Satin and his angels.

I'm glad that I've found another person who still thinks of Satan as a real being...not many people do anymore.

[Nurvingiel]

Hey Arien, good to see ya! W00t all my Moot buddies are posting again!

Satan has angels? Okay, I have no idea what an angel is then, apart from a spiritual being.

I think Satan exists, but not in the "typical" way we imagine. (Ie. Horns, legs of goat, pitchfork etc.) I do think Satan is a real being, despite my fairly loose definitions of everything in this department. Actually I'm not sure about this either. But evil exists. This I'm sure about.

EDIT: Satan has to be a real being, where else would evil come from? So... confused...

EDIT2: Because God made the Universe, even Satan who wasn't always evil. That means God made the one who made evil. So if God made evil (sort of) Satan doesn't have to exist at all. And God is benevolent, can this coexist with making evil? If God is all-powerful this couldn't be accidental. Argh, I can't think anymore. *brain leaks out ears*

[inked]

Nurvingiel,

What! No classes? Make haste to mend that deficiency. I'd suggest MERE CHRISTIANITY by CS Lewis for starters. If you have a copy of the Prayer Book for your region, check out a section called Catechism.

Christians do mean specific things by their terminology. Quite specific and daunting things too. Dorothy L. Sayers, noted authoress of detective fiction and translator of Dante and lay theologian, has a short book that your Univeristy library should have on hand known as CREED OR CHAOS. I recommend it to your perusal as well.

The remark about Satan and the fallen angels suggests a less than complete grasp or teaching about the nature of evil and exactly what and whom Jesus did save us from. Yes, Satan (aka the Devil, aka Lucifer, aka Angel of Light) was a created being, originally good, with free will, who set himself against his Creator and led many angelic beings in rebellion against God. His opposite is Michael the Archangel, not God. Check out my postings (and others' as ell in Evil in Middle Earth). Subsequently, Satan led mankind into the self-same VOLUNTARY rebellion from which God has made a deliverance available.

Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary the Virgin, was the taking of human nature by the God of All, truly human and truly divine, truly crucified, truly dead and buried, truly resurrected, and truly ascended, who shall return in glory to judge both the living and the dead. This what is meant by Christians using the term Son of God (cf. Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian, and Creed of Chalcedon, as well as the Thirty-Nine articles. See your Prayerbook.)

The Holy Spirit is God at work in the lives of men and women now and throughout all time.

Thus we have the active personal God who created all that is and continues creating now, revealed in a specific historical person, accomplishing His goals in the world today: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the Trinity).

So, when you say you are an Anglican Christian, this is what you say. Now, is that what you mean?

Edit: See also the Silmarillion forum and thread Iluvatar Good and Evil .

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Very well put, inked.

Originally Posted by inked

Satan (aka the Devil, aka Lucifer, aka Angel of Light).

Don't you mean Angel of Darkness? Or perhaps death?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

What! No classes? Make haste to mend that deficiency.

Religious knowledge is not central to my beliefs, as you noticed. I don't consider this a deficiency, but rather something interesting to learn.

Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary the Virgin, was the taking of human nature by the God of All, truly human and truly divine, truly crucified, truly dead and buried, truly resurrected, and truly ascended, who shall return in glory to judge both the living and the dead. This what is meant by Christians using the term Son of God (cf. Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian, and Creed of Chalcedon, as well as the Thirty-Nine articles. See your Prayerbook.)

Did I disagree with that somewhere? I certainly didn't intend that, I actually knew (and believe) it!

So, when you say you are an Anglican Christian, this is what you say. Now, is that what you mean?

Fine, I'm not any religion then! It doesn't really matter, I still believe in God and Jesus.


I started a new thread about Theology because it's not really what I believe (since I don't know any! ).

EDIT: Cross-post with Merry, who I think is right about the Angel of Darkness, unless there's some deep theological other meaning.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

EDIT: Satan has to be a real being, where else would evil come from? So... confused...

I think that Satan is a symbol for all things evil eg. hate, fear, spite, temptation. Take the story of Jesus in the desert. There Satan was represented by temptation. He is the part inside of us that makes us feel hatred and fear and despair. Most people overcome it but the tiniest percentage of people hearken to this part of them and it dominates them.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Let's keep any further discussion going in the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread... official as of... now.

The Hot Seat person speaketh! Let us, her humble questioners, obey!

(I agree! That topic deserves its own discussion.)

[Nurvingiel]

LOL RÃ*an!

Okay, let's pause a moment and recap.

What sort of things are we talking about?
Anything on homosexuality will now go to its own thread, and inked's interesting theological stuff will go to the new and spiffy theology thread.

We also don't have to talk about religious matters. That reminds me of something.

I think it's not so important to know the nuts and bolts of your religion as long as you follow its intent. IOW, for me, since I know enough to love and worship God, that's okay. I would like to know more of the nuts and bolts, because I do love God, and it's interesting. That being said, I still think Sunday School totally rules.

Here's something hopefully interesting. At the rate we either use or destroy resources on this planet, humanity will eventually need to find another one! Not tomorrow or next year, but we are not operating in a long-lasting way. All other animal populations on the planet would have experienced a major population crash by now. This is unacceptable to humans, this is one of the things that separates us from our animal neighbours.

Actually finding another planet with acceptable living conditions is next to impossible, even if we did possess the technology. We had better get organized, or we will no longer be able to avoid a very severe population crash. And after the crash, I think we will never be able to regain the overall quality of life we currently experience.

So ask me anything about the distribution of resources, or any other question as well!

[Rían]

Sorry, now it's the turn of the thread-starter to make a proclamation

This thread is about beliefs that are behind your worldview; i.e., those that drive your moral choices.

You can start another thread about distributions of resources, if you'd like to

And you haven't answered a coupla my questions yet, and I'd like to hear your answers! I'll go back and number them so I can keep better track of them, then I'll re-post the ones you didn't get to yet, OK?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Satan (aka the Devil, aka Lucifer, aka Angel of Light).

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

Don't you mean Angel of Darkness? Or perhaps death?

Second Corinthians 11:14 - "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

example - "That necklace would look so beautiful on you! You really deserve it, it's not your fault you didn't get that raise and can't afford one like it! And she's just waaaay too vain and conceited about herself and that necklace, and it would really do her a great deal of good to lose it. You'd really be helping her out. It's not good to be vain, after all. And you know your boyfriend would buy you one like that if he could afford it, anyway, so you really should have it. She isn't even home now, she'll never know it was you, and you'll really be helping her out. And she'll think it got lost while she was packing her stuff, and since she's moving out of town, she'll never see you wear it ..."

[Rían]

OK, at this point, I'll re-ask #6:

6. And to throw in another point to ponder on the question of what makes a Christian - the Bible notes that the demons believe in God, and they believe that Jesus is the Son of God - does that make them Christians?


... and pose #7:

7. If you were not a Christian, would your life look any different? IOW, how does being a Christian play out in your day-to-day life?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

OK, at this point, I'll re-ask #6:

6. And to throw in another point to ponder on the question of what makes a Christian - the Bible notes that the demons believe in God, and they believe that Jesus is the Son of God - does that make them Christians?

I think it does, just bad ones. For although that acknowledge these things they are constantly breaking one of the tebn commandments. Do not envy.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Second Corinthians 11:14 - "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

And sometimes as a vision of Mary or Jesus.