Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Lotesse]

Hear, hear!! Thanx 4 that, BB!

[Butterbeer]

RIAN and GOR

please, if you wish to argue about nazgul horses there is a thread for it.

I have an unrivalled nose for potential arguments and can sense one before even the participants know it themsleves ... so please you guys either agree to disagree or do it in the rightful thread ... and that thread is not here.

i would also suggest we all do not make unilateral decisions and await a group consensus ... for as you say we are trying to make a better rpg here, nothing more nothing less,

please read my post above!

and rian you can consider this the RL Rian version, of a "stern mum look"

very best BB

[Rían]

I agree that screaming geese will give too much away, and I'm grudgingly OK with the horse stuff, but I think a just-under-the-radar uneasiness of animals would be a good idea. Does everyone agree? The kind of thing that might eventually be the last straw, after MANY other observations.

Originally Posted by bb

... but i do agree that nazgul powers need to be toned down somewhat ...

I think quite a few of us agree here, so let's see if we can come to an agreement.

The main thing that I think is totally wrong here, as well as unrealistic, is the "implanting ideas that stick in a person's head" thing, ESPECIALLY if they go against a person's actual inclinations or character. The only being in LOTR that comes NEAR the type of thing that the Nazgul in this rpg are doing is Saruman, and as Tolkien points out in Letters, he does it via persuasion, not via brute force like we have in this rpg.

When I was handed Melwen climbing into bed with Arastud, I didn't think it was an acceptable power for Khamul to have had, but I worked with it - I had it kind of "wear off" as she slowly came to herself. Then I was told I couldn't do that, so I had Arastud just overpower her physically, which obviously he could do.

It just sits so WRONG with me to allow that kind of power. I think Val and Earniel's examples of what our rpg-Nazgul could currently do are 100% accurate, and I don't think it's right canon-wise or good rpg-wise. I mean, why don't they go from town to town, walking down the street and implanting in everyone's minds, "Kill the King, tell us if you see an elven ring, and vote for Sauron!" It just doesn't fly, IMO. Perhaps a temporary control, with varying strength depending on the underlying desire, but at great cost to the Nazgul so they can't do it very often - maybe something like that?

To me, one of the most critical things in Tolkien's work is the concept of free will and the resulting consequences. Tolkien talks about free will in Letters, and mentions that even the Valar "cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision." And free will is a fundamental provision. Tolkien even says that free will is guaranteed by Iluvatar Himself, and even Iluvatar does not stop consequences (as it appears to our "finite view".)

I'll close my appeal with the words of Finrod to Andreth in the lovely story Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) - Finrod is commenting upon something that Andreth says Morgoth did in spite of Iluvatar wanting it another way:

from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
"...could the Morgoth do this? No, I say. And for that reason I said that if your tale is true, then all in Arda is vain, from the pinnacle of Oiolossë to the uttermost abyss."

[Rían]

(ps - another type of "mind control" that might be acceptable to use for Melwen - a good, old-fashioned bop on the head resulting in a concussion, and a startled and innocent "what are you TALKING about?" when she remembers anything, if she does!)

[Gordis]

I totally agree with BB's post.

No, I am not going to argue about horses or nazgul in this thread anymore. But please, others, if you wish to discuss what is canon and what is not, please do it in threads in Books forum.
Gor

[Rían]

(ps - why wasn't Zimra, or whatever her name was, there to help at Orrodel?)

[CrazySquirrel]

I see my post about Khamul and maid-disposal made quite a stir.

But, by the way, Valandil was the first to invent this mind thingy – implanting thoughts in other’s minds. Hadn’t Oreturion – a mere man - planted a thought in Marty’s mind? And he needed Marty drunk for that.
Have you all forgotten it?

Why couldn’t Khamul, nazgul and sorceror, do the same? Why such double standards?

And I never intended the maid’s love for Arastud to be ETERNAL!
Who had this idea? As for it being contrary to her nature… WHY? Arastud was very likeable and handsome, she could have loved him quite naturally, she needed little prompting.

Rian, you can change your post about Arastud the way you like it. Let her be surprised, it’s fine with me. The most important thing that he has seen her drunk and getting into his bed.

Actually, if we come to critics, Rian,, I find it funny that you provide a lover for every maid involved, be it a public character or not. For Annawen you invented Arastud, then for Rian this Tyaron, and now Alagos is clearly meant for Earniel. And no problems. Happy End. That is dull, somehow. But maybe it is just me... And will there be fun at Commerce if all the girls involved are firmly engaged?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(ps - why wasn't Zimra, or whatever her name was, there to help at Orrodel?)

Because it was night, and she was sleeping in the far end of the Servant's wing. Look at Gor's map.
And of course the nazgul didn't call the servants to prepare their night drinks - they were in Orrodel in SECRET! We ARE discreet, after all!

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I see my post about Khamul and maid-disposal made quite a stir.

But, by the way, Valandil was the first to invent this mind thingy – implanting thoughts in other’s minds. Hadn’t Oreturion – a mere man - planted a thought in Marty’s mind? And he needed Marty drunk for that.
Have you all forgotten it?

Why couldn’t Khamul, nazgul and sorceror, do the same? Why such double standards?

Why, indeed? That's right, Val WAS the first to use the mind implant thingy. We didn't get crazy about YOU using it Val; how come you're getting crazy about US doing the same?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I think it's good that this mind-cpntrol stuff is being discussed and that any limitations set on it should hold for both 'good' and 'bad' characters.
CS is right in that we should definitely strive to avoid setting double standards.

I see no reason why mind-control with boundaries cannot be used. I originally supported the idea of using mind-control on the maid because it was the best alternative to having the nazgul just kill her. Which would have been far more noticable within the context of the story and which would also have been a waste of a character. I feel that characters take a lot of creative energy to develop, and anything that renders a good character, however minor, useless should be avoided.

I felt that Rian's original handling of Melwen's reaction was perfectly fine. I believe there was no mention of the effects being at all long term or permanant until this:

Originally posted by Gordis Rian nice post about A&A, but Melwen was not SIMPLY drunk, she is now firmly in love with Arastud, as Khamul planted it in her mind deeply, so no throwing up will change that. So her question "What am I doing here?" is a bit strange.

Which I found to be a bit confusing.

[CrazySquirrel]

Well "planted firmly" were my own words, I believe Khamul planted it as firmly as he could, at least enough for the night. Enough for her to make a fool of herself. Nowhere it was said "Eternally". And of course, I believe that throwing up will help to sober her, but not to dispel the spell so early, minutes after it was made. But making her unbutton her bodice was not really necessary, if Rian didn't like it.

[Lotesse]

CS, do you feel up to posting some dialogue with us Nazgul in the living room right now? I love your dialogue style. Right now we're eating sandwiches & drinking whatever each Nazgul prefers (Viv got some midnight snacks together) and I guess we could make some talk while we wait for Gordis to give us our Morgul Lord talking-to.

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Shah - excellent warm-up 2 the Big Race! I have an idea: How about when Viv & Laslech show up to the race, the other horses might be a bit skittish around Viv. NOT terrified, but perhaps a little distracted or nervous, antsy. Because of Viv being a Nazgul. But Laslech isn't nervous since the mare CHOSE to take Viv as her Rider. Anyway. Maybe that'll help appease the animal naysayers.

Slight problem, with that, Volricom has already had Viv on him, and wasnt skittish. Ithilion, I can write that he is skittish.

[CrazySquirrel]

Well if the Elves admit themselves that they have far less nazgul-sensitivity than animals...

[The last sane person]

*pounces on Lotesse* You'd better write your own prep for the race, because I highly doubt Viv would be chit chatting with fellow nazgul, until a few minutes before the race...

[Lotesse]

Crazy Squirrel -I like how you had Zimra help her poor cousin Merwen. I think Merwen should definitely stay alive, because she & Zimra can be the presence in Orrodel what Rian used to be - non-Nazguls who can be observers and reactors, and stuff like that.

I agree of course, Shah, plus Volcirom didn't seem like the type of horse at all to scare easily anyway. I was just tryna throw these anti-animalists out there some kind of bone. Ithilien being skittish is a great idea, though - boy, Marty is gonna be annoyed, huh!

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

CS, do you feel up to posting some dialogue with us Nazgul in the living room right now? I love your dialogue style. Right now we're eating sandwiches & drinking whatever each Nazgul prefers (Viv got some midnight snacks together) and I guess we could make some talk while we wait for Gordis to give us our Morgul Lord talking-to.

Lotesse, how about taking the nz company not to the living room that has windows onto the street and is right near the Hall and both servant's and front doors - so NOT a place for a secret meeting, but, instead, to Khamul's study on the Second (or third) floor or to a sitting room that might be upstairs? I believe we don't have plans of 2 and 3 floors?

And remember the Chancellor, Udu, etc. were eating at the reception for hours.So perhaps only Penny and Lilly need sandwiches? But we DRINK!!!

I have posted about the maid. We need more witnesses!

Penny must look to my backside. And Udu's. And Ilmenzor to Khamul's neck. Could you post it, Lotesse? Please?
I really am drained and upset. It is so...one-sided. That's how I feel.
I am going to bed, too late. Have nice evening, All.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

*pounces on Lotesse* You'd better write your own prep for the race, because I highly doubt Viv would be chit chatting with fellow nazgul, until a few minutes before the race...

I know, but isn't it still like 2 in the morning or something at Orrodel? I'm waiting for our Nazgul talking-to to take place, then Viv can go to bed, get up the next morning, have a BATH yes a bath, you guys, Viv isn't scared of baths. Then she can get dressed, and prep Laslech, and head on out to meet up with the guys for the race. Should I write something now? What do I write? I don't know what to write until the Nazgul night gets wrapped up.

[CrazySquirrel]

Oh, yes, please write about Penny healing the two, and the Captain stitching or whatever Khamul and than drinking!!!!

Now I am really off!
CS

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Lotesse, how about taking the nz company not to the living room that has windows onto the street and is right near the Hall and both servant's and front doors - so NOT a place for a secret meeting, but, instead, to Khamul's study on the Second (or third) floor or to a sitting room that might be upstairs? I believe we don't have plans of 2 and 3 floors?

And remember the Chancellor, Udu, etc. were eating at the reception for hours.So perhaps only Penny and Lilly need sandwiches? But we DRINK!!!

I have posted about the maid. We need more witnesses!

Penny must look to my backside. And Udu's. And Ilmenzor to Khamul's neck. Could you post it, Lotesse? Please?
I really am drained and upset. It is so...one-sided. That's how I feel.
I am going to bed, too late. Have nice evening, All.

Don't be upset, Crazy Squirrel! Here, I made you a nice Blueberry Tea - it's a fantastic comfort-booze drink made with VSOP remy martin, grand marnier and amaretto in a snifter. Yes, I'll go back & alter that 4 U. And I'll try and find us a new pic for the secret Orrodel House "situation room".

[The last sane person]

Well, she will only have about 3 hours of sleep, if she wants to be able to shower and prep herself and Laslech. This is a race, not a tea party! These two men mean business! And Marty will be only slightly annoyed, he knows what he is doing.