REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Brill]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Just for the record, I personally DO believe that an individual of the Catholic faith (as opposed to Catholics en masse) may certainly be a Christian, just as a Methodist may be a Christian (but would be in a minority position in the Methodist church, probably). Also that Catholic and Methodist individuals may NOT be Christian.

Agreed.

Sorry to burst YOUR bubble, but the Catholic religion IS a Christian religion. In order to be a Christian religion, the religion must believe that Jesus Christ is the son of god and worship him as god's son. That would be a "Christian" religion. As for all the other things: the Pope and saints are idols, blablabla ... you are mistaken. Catholics pray to saints for strength to follow in their shoes, so to speak, to be better Christians, to bring them closer to god's expectations of them. That's all. (I believe the worship of saints as idols is called Santaria and is not Catholic.)

True statement in bold, but I do believe I said something along the lines of I THINK therefore making the statement an opinion.

Italics statement: I was born a Catholic, okay? They do pray to saints and mary and seek the pope for absolution. You are not supposed "To have any god before me, nor any graven image" yadda yadda yadda, you get the point. Ahem, you pray to your chosen god, this is known as worship. Praying to saints is the same as praying to the tree in the front yard.

To dovetail what Ruinel said, if the pope is an idol, then every priest, minister, pastor, whatever, from any denomination is just as much an idol.

What makes you so sure of that? I never prayed to ONE of the PREACHERS/PASTORS I knew.

Brill, those are fighting words

*gets ready for a slap fight!*

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Brill
I personally don't believe that Catholics qualify as true Christians. The Pope is an Idol, as well as the saints, and Mary to him they pray to for intermission.

Sorry to burst THAT bubble I am not saying Catholics aren't good people, or even godly people in most aspects, except for a few doctrinal things.

ok maybe you should do some research on the doctrine of the Catholic Church before you going saying things like that. The Pope is NOT an Idol...he's Christ representative on earth to lead the Church....just like St. Peter was chosen by Christ to lead the Church. we honor Mary and the saints...there is only 1 God in 3 Persons, and we worship Him. Most Protestants just go off on a tangent saying that Catholics aren't tru Christians and all that when the truth is that all the Christian denominations owe alot to the Catholic Church before it split into all it's sects....the translation of the Bible into Latin, the assemblage of the Bible, the missionaries to all the countries etc...Catholic is just a name meaning universal b/c the Church exists all over the world...If a poerson calls himself/herself Christian then he/she should live like Chirst or at least try to, otherwise that would make him/her a hypocrit.

[Brill]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
ok maybe you should do some research on the doctrine of the Catholic Church before you going saying things like that. The Pope is NOT an Idol...he's Christ representative on earth to lead the Church....just like St. Peter was chosen by Christ to lead the Church. we honor Mary and the saints...there is only 1 God in 3 Persons, and we worship Him. Most Protestants just go off on a tangent saying that Catholics aren't tru Christians and all that when the truth is that all the Christian denominations owe alot to the Catholic Church before it split into all it's sects....the translation of the Bible into Latin, the assemblage of the Bible, the missionaries to all the countries etc...Catholic is just a name meaning universal b/c the Church exists all over the world...If a poerson calls himself/herself Christian then he/she should live like Chirst or at least try to, otherwise that would make him/her a hypocrit.

You know, with posts like this, it makes it all worth while...

I could nit pick everything you said out of here, but I'll let you go on with your delusions.

And, you are correct about being a hypocrite.

*Goes and whistles*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Brill
... but I do believe I said something along the lines of I THINK therefore making the statement an opinion.

True, an opinion. I think that there are three of us trying to explain and help with some of your misconceptions about the Catholic religion.

Italics statement: I was born a Catholic, okay? They do pray to saints and mary and seek the pope for absolution. You are not supposed "To have any god before me, nor any graven image" yadda yadda yadda, you get the point. Ahem, you pray to your chosen god, this is known as worship. Praying to saints is the same as praying to the tree in the front yard.

*[game_show_buzzer]* Sorry, that is incorrect.
I understand that someone can be born a Catholic and still not understand the religion. Did you read what Guillaume le Maréchal
said? He's right. I know a lot of Christians that say "I'll pray for you". Are they saying that now they are my idol and that I am worshipping them? Or if a Christian says, "I need help with this problem in my life. Will you pray for me?" Is this Christian now making their friend an idol, because they asked their friend to pray for them? It's the same as praying and asking a saint to help them. You just replace your friend with the saint. Same thing. When you pray to Mary, you say "...pray for our sins...", not ask her to absolve you of your sins, she can't do that. It's a prayer for help. Understand?

And the Pope is not an idol, neither is Mother Theresa or anyone else. No one worships the Pope as a god. The pope is just like a preacher or minister, he leads the flock, that's all. You pray with him, not to him.

You are seriously in error, and full of misconceptions. You say that you were born Catholic, but how is it that you don't know all of this?

Though I am not promoting Catholicism, I used to be one for most of my life. Now I am an Atheist. So, as for "praying to the tree in the front yard", I agree. I don't believe that there is a heaven or angels or god or anything like that. Praying to any deity is also, IMO, like praying to the tree in the front yard.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Brill
You know, with posts like this, it makes it all worth while...

I could nit pick everything you said out of here, but I'll let you go on with your delusions.

And, you are correct about being a hypocrite.

*Goes and whistles*

I wonder why it is that those who are so opposed to Catholicism totally discount what they are told by Catholics. Surely people who actually follow a certain religion/denomination are best qualified to explain what they believe, what they do and why they do it. Catholics like me say we don't worship saints. Why don't you take our word for it? (I'm genuinely curious )

Guillaume le Maréchal, you put it very eloquently. I would try and state my position on this, but I'd only be repeating what you said so well

[Brill]

He's right. I know a lot of Christians that say "I'll pray for you". Are they saying that now they are my idol and that I am worshipping them?

Don't quite get your reasoning here, praying for someone is different then praying to them...

It's the same as praying and asking a saint to help them.

Praying to someone who is dead, or anything else is biblically wrong. That is the point I am trying to make? You can ask your pastor to pray about a problem without kneeling down, and saying "Oh Great Pastor, I pray to you today to ask you to pray to god about my problem." I don't think you can get absolution from anyone but God. No priest can tell you to do penance and you are automatically (after doing it) forgiven, I don't think a dead person proclaimed a saint can plead your case before god. "Not of works lest any man should boast, yet not of yourselves lest any man should boast."

When you pray to Mary, you say "...pray for our sins...", not ask her to absolve you of your sins, she can't do that. It's a prayer for help. Understand?

Mary is dead. Mary was a good Jew in life, the "mother" of Jesus, but God could have chosen to be on earth as a man to begin with. He didn't NEED Mary, I don't understand why she is so important in the Cathollic religion. Yeah, I understand, but again I say you are praying to someone and asking them to pray for you...pray for yourself.

You are seriously in error, and full of misconceptions. You say that you were born Catholic, but how is it that you don't know all of this?

I know it, but I think it's propaganda and spun and manipulated to the likings of the people.

Why don't you take our word for it?

Again, because I know people can be sensationalistic, liars, manipulators *not saying any of you mooters are, but I know everyone CAN*I try to read between the lines, and I don't take anything for face value.

I also think people are biased in their opinions for I KNOW I am, every religious/political/scientific whatever minded person gets much like a peacock.

intercession

I knew I got that word wrong, guess I've been swimming too long.

Did you read what Guillaume le Maréchal said?

Yeah, I did, and I found no new compelling argument that I haven't argued before.

quit hounding me, I'm just a dumb teenager

But seriously, I enjoy the discussion. I just wonder why I am the only person being questioned for their beliefs and why the known catholics aren't.

If I haven't offended most of you...I'll be back.

[Arien the Maia]

Brill, how old were you when you left the Catholic Church? was it a conscious decision or did your parents make you?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Brill
Don't quite get your reasoning here, praying for someone is different then praying to them...

Exactly. I think people get "praying for someone" and "praying to someone" mixed up.

Praying to someone who is dead, or anything else is biblically wrong.

Where does it say this? I know people who "talk" to dead loved ones all the time. Is that wrong? Please tell me where it says, "thou shalt not speak to dead people".

at is the point I am trying to make? You can ask your pastor to pray about a problem without kneeling down, and saying "Oh Great Pastor, I pray to you today to ask you to pray to god about my problem."

Who does this?

I don't think you can get absolution from anyone but God. No priest can tell you to do penance and you are automatically (after doing it) forgiven, I don't think a dead person proclaimed a saint can plead your case before god. "Not of works lest any man should boast, yet not of yourselves lest any man should boast."

You have that all wrong. When you go to confession, you are supposed to be sorry that you sinned, when you confess the sin. If you aren't, then you're still carrying that sin around with you, and you can't be forgiven for something you aren't sorry for.

I know it, but I think it's propaganda and spun and manipulated to the likings of the people.

All religion is man-made and is propaganda for the masses utilized for their oppression, to keep them in line. Fear god! For if you don't you will burn in the fires of hell and sufffer for all eternity!

quit hounding me, I'm just a dumb teenager

Sorry.

But seriously, I enjoy the discussion. I just wonder why I am the only person being questioned for their beliefs and why the known catholics aren't.

The only beliefs I see you being questioned for are stereotypes of someone else's religion, not your own beliefs.

If I haven't offended most of you...I'll be back.

Good. I've really enjoyed having your points discussed in this thread. I've seen people post here that either never have, or rarely have. Thanks for making it lively.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Brill
I could nit pick everything you said out of here, but I'll let you go on with your delusions.

Well, Brill, now I understand why you're getting flamed That's pretty insulting. Arien is intelligent and courteous, and can discuss disagreements without name-calling. I've posted with her for quite awhile, and while I disagree with her in some areas of doctrine, she is NOT deluded, IMO.

BTW, I've found that people usually resort to name-calling when they have run out of logical or intellectual answers. If you object to what she says, my advice to you (meant in a kind way ) is to "agree to disagree", or to go ahead and discuss the disagreements; not to drop a disagreement by saying she has "delusions" without any logical basis whatsoever for this claim. You hardly know her at all! - on what basis can you say she, personally, has delusions? None.

And, you are correct about being a hypocrite.

I'm not quite sure here - are you callling Arien a hypocrite (if so, why?), or are you saying that you, personally, are a hypocrite, since you say you believe in the Bible but you don't do anything about it? I really don't understand how you meant this; would you please clear it up for me? Thanks.

I hope you can stay in this discussion, as you seem to be intelligent, but I also hope you can be more considerate of others.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Brill, how old were you when you left the Catholic Church? was it a conscious decision or did your parents make you?

I just wanted to point out that this was a beautiful post!

It's beautiful because of what is NOT in it - Arien was insulted, but did not insult back. The perfect example of Arien knowing the Bible (in this case, Matthew 5:39) and striving to obey it.

From a fellow blessed servant of the Savior, "You go, girl!"

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I just wanted to point out that this was a beautiful post!

It's beautiful because of what is NOT in it - Arien was insulted, but did not insult back. The perfect example of Arien knowing the Bible (in this case, Matthew 5:39) and striving to obey it.

From a fellow blessed servant of the Savior, "You go, girl!"

Thank you! I must admit that I am quick to anger when my faith is being ridiculed so I had to take a while to cool off before I posted on the matter again. I know that there are alot of people who disagree with the Catholic Chruch (obiously since there are so many denominations ) but usually we don't often get into serious religious debates for several reasons.
1. I'm not that great at debating b/c liek I said I get angry and can't keep a cool head !
2. I need to brush up on my history of the Church so that I can adequately defend it
3. I realized that the only way that the Chirstian Church can eventually reunite is for us to live out what Jesus and His apostles taught us...to love and that actions are the quickest way to get some one convinced of a particular religion.

I do apologize if in my posts I come off as sounding mean...that's just my temper and no offense to anyone! seriously!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm not quite sure here - are you callling Arien a hypocrite (if so, why?), or are you saying that you, personally, are a hypocrite, since you say you believe in the Bible but you don't do anything about it? I really don't understand how you meant this; would you please clear it up for me? Thanks.

I hope you can stay in this discussion, as you seem to be intelligent, but I also hope you can be more considerate of others.

I think he ment that in a post I had posted I said something to the effect of "catholic is just a name and Christian is a follower of Christ if you don't try to act like Christ but still call yourself Christian then you are a hypocrit." and he agreed with me on this point.

[Rían]

oh, I see, that makes sense - is that right, Brill?

(and you're welcome, Arien - I figured you had to take time to cool off before you posted, and I just wanted to let you know that I admired you for that )

ps - based on Brill's comments on the venting thread about a halloween costume, I think Brill is a girl... (or perhaps a guy that likes wearing high heels? )

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
oh, I see, that makes sense - is that right, Brill?

(and you're welcome, Arien - I figured you had to take time to cool off before you posted, and I just wanted to let you know that I admired you for that )

ps - based on Brill's comments on the venting thread about a halloween costume, I think Brill is a girl... (or perhaps a guy that likes wearing high heels? )

lol! thanks! I'll remember to address her as She then!

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Just for the record, I personally DO believe that an individual of the Catholic faith (as opposed to Catholics en masse) may certainly be a Christian, just as a Methodist may be a Christian (but would be in a minority position in the Methodist church, probably). Also that Catholic and Methodist individuals may NOT be Christian.

Rian, are you saying that members of any denomination may not be Christian, or those two in particular?

Why would a Methodist who is a Christian be in a minority in a professed Christian Church?

[Brill]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Brill, how old were you when you left the Catholic Church? was it a conscious decision or did your parents make you?

huh, 12 maybe? My mother was the only Catholic in the family (father is an atheist/agnostic *he hasn't decided yet, he's ambivalent *) and when she died, no one else went, I was offered rides on from several members, I jumped ship. I have to say I am bitter towards the church (reasons I don't care to discuss). So what, I am not without bias.

Who does this?

TYPO! Yech, I fat fingered that one, sorry. I meant CANT

Well, Brill, now I understand why you're getting flamed

Again, I have been personally attacked already, and do not mean to do it to other people, I'm PMSing (no excuse, but you understand) and haven't gotten much sleep.

Arien,
I feel your pain on why you don't debate much.

I really don't understand how you meant this; would you please clear it up for me?

"I think he ment that in a post I had posted I said something to the effect of "catholic is just a name and Christian is a follower of Christ if you don't try to act like Christ but still call yourself Christian then you are a hypocrit." and he agreed with me on this point." --Good answer.

You have that all wrong. When you go to confession, you are supposed to be sorry that you sinned, when you confess the sin. If you aren't, then you're still carrying that sin around with you, and you can't be forgiven for something you aren't sorry for.

What is the point of going to confession? The veil was rent.

(or perhaps a guy that likes wearing high heels?

[Rían]

Yes, I'm saying that IMO, members of any Christian denomination may not be Christian (or conversely, may BE Christian!) I'm not calling out those 2 groups in particular, I just used the Methodist church as an example of another Christian denomination, mainly because I was raised Methodist.

And my comment about "minority position" was precisely because I was raised Methodist, and saw first-hand how many, many people there were NOT Christian (including myself for many years). How did I know they were not Christian? Because later on, they became Christians, and they knew the difference! (and they also left the Methodist church, where our pastor was as likely to preach out of a psychology book as to preach out of the Bible). That comment was really mainly a sad reflection; it is hopefully not accurate, but really, I imagine it is.

And I can't seem to word things well tonight! I hope that made sense.

Was Arien right about the "hypocrite" statement?
*edit* just saw your response - thanks! Boy, did I misunderstand that one! That's why it's always good to ask!

[Brill]

Was Arien right about the "hypocrite" statement?

I believe I indicated it was so?

But yes,

[Rían]

Whoops - we're cross-posting, Brill - see my post above yours where I edited my last line

Sorry about the PMS - beentheredonethat - I just wanted to come to the defense of Arien, who I respect a lot, and who is NOT delusional, IMO And I wanted to let her know that a fellow struggler-with-sin saw her victorious struggle, and was proud of her

[Rían]

A couple of comments about Catholic issues from a non-Catholic -

AFAIK, the confessional-thing, as well as the pray-to-saints thing, is based on verses like James 5:16:

James 5:16
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

Is this right, Catholics?

Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with prayer to saints, as long as it's along the lines of this: (and I'll invent a saint named Sue, who was known to be an especially patient person): "Dear Sue - I know that you were really good with being patient, and I sure need help here! Could you please pray for me to our God and Father that I would have more patience? Thank you, and I'll look forward to meeting you in heaven!"

(the above example is given with respect, and in all sincerity and seriousness - I don't mean to put down the Catholic church at all.)

Now what I wouldn't agree with, at least as far as I've thought it through, is this: "Dear Sue - I know that you were really good with being patient, and I sure need help here! Could you please help me to have more patience? Thank you, and I'll look forward to meeting you in heaven!"

To my mind, there is a big difference.

Also, being an engineer, I appreciate efficiency, and I think it's more efficient to go directly to God yourself!