Capturing Tolkien's Vision vs. A Literal Interpretation

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Nice post, Wayfarer. You weren't your usual wild-eyed, stark-raving mad self for a change. I would agree that there is no way that any film (regardless of who produces and directs it) will ever capture the total magic of Tolkien's masterpiece.

But I guess I'm just easier to please that you are. I have spent years looking at Tolkien art and saying things like, "oh NO, Frodo doesn't look like THAT" or "you've gotta be kidding me, THAT is a ringwraith?" I also stood in line for the premiere of Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings with excitement and high hopes only to leave the theatre disappointed and very embarrassed at the effort that was made.

The bottom line is that I can separate the books from the films and admire and enjoy the differences between the two without having to feel I'm dividing my loyalties. Whatever your feelings about the films, I truly believe they reflect a deep love and respect for Tolkien's work.

I appreciate the genuine seriousness that Peter Jackson has given this project. From the art design, to the incredible casting, to the scripts, there has been a passion for "getting it right." You may not agree with all (or any) of the production's decisions, but I believe the decisions were made with a careful eye toward what was "true to Tolkien." I honestly believe that RETURN OF THE KING will be THE BEST movie in THE BEST movie trilogy I've ever had the privilege of enjoying during my lifetime.

After 361 times saying "Jackson has improved Tolkien", and preaching about how Jackson was a perfect (at any rate far above adequate) adaptation of Tolkien's books, now all of a sudden you're a Separatist? Wow...

[Melko Belcha]

I really like the way the person at the Ecyclopedia of Arda said it.

The Lord of the Rings is an historical novel, and the trivial fact that its history is a fictional one is really beside the point. Its consistent adherence to its own underlying reality is a key (perhaps the key) strength of the book. Even the tiniest of changes within the story can potentially have profound effects on the fabric of its universe, and it's that universe, as much as the stories he set in it, that is Tolkien's true legacy.

[Elfhelm]

The bottom line is, Faramir is supposed to help the hobbits; Faramir is supposed to have a little dignity; Faramir is not supposed to threaten them, abuse Gollum, shuffle around sweaty and unshaven, drag them into the crossfire of a war, and plot to steal what Gandalf said must be destroyed. That is not Farmir. Bottom line.

[Wayfarer]

Nice post, Wayfarer. You weren't your usual wild-eyed, stark-raving mad self for a change.

My entire reality just came crashing down about my ears. Where, oh /where/ did I go wrong?

[Telmelion]

This topic seems to be already diverting from the listed subject "the themes of LotR" to "the differences between the movie LotR and the book". I think the idea of friendship being able to overcome great odds is portrayed wonderfully in the book and the movie through Frodo and Sam's relationship. This is why I don't mind the scenes in Osgiliath, because those scenes only strengthen this theme.

I also think that the Arwen and Elrond scenes strengthen the idea of the fading of the elves. The only changes that annoy me are the changes that are not true to Tolkien AND don't strengthen the underlying themes of LotR. I.E. the change of merry and pippin's role in FotR and the ents choosing NOT to go to war.

That is my humble opinion.

[Wayfarer]

*/rubs hands together gleefully.

Now that you've brought up the /themes/ of LOTR I can pounce.

Guess what, guys. Friendship wasn't the theme of the book. Neither was the idea that small people can do big things too. Both of those were true, but they weren't what the novels were about.

Tolkien himself said that there were two themes to the LOTR- The desire to escape death, and the desire to escape deathlessness.

Jackson Lords and A Ring film didn't even come close to capturing this, instead focusing on the trivial things mentioned above. Which is another reason why it does /not/ capture the spirit of tolkien.

[Melko Belcha]

Great point Wayfarer

Letters #185

The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.

Letter #204

But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness.

Letter #211

It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory.

Check the Index to The Letters of JRR Tolkien: The Lord of the Rings: Contents, author's intentions: real theme is death and immortality: if you would like to read more on it.

[azalea]

Well, I think he portrayed a lot of the "trying to escape death" theme, but is only touching on the "trying to escape deathlessness" one. But these two themes are I think a little too broad to be dealt with in a film adaptation of any adventure-style story. Then again I think "the elves are leaving ME" may be too specific.
I think the themes of "each person doing what he can to fight regardless of how insignificant his part seems in the great scheme of things" and that of "carrying on in the face of hopelessness" are two important "lesser" themes in the book. I think the theme of "devotion to one who has earned your respect" is another. These may not be THE themes, but they certainly come across as one reads.

Now, do I think that PJ transferred these themes from the book adequately? And futhermore, is it even important that he did/ does? To me, a good movie adaptation need not do that to tell the story. But it makes it all the more rich when it does.
I think PJ did well with the first of the themes I brought up (the insignif one). Adequate, but then all I require there is adequacy -- he need not hammer it into the ground, or it would be preachy. The second one came across well in the second movie (to the point of almost becoming preachy, but not quite. That speech Sam made I would have done without the music in the background. I would have saved it for AFTER the speech). The third I mentioned is coming across pretty well, but the "who has earned your respect" part is lacking there. More needed to be shown, but this is where PJ and I differ -- he wants flashy scenes, I would have gone the subtle route. His style is the preferred in modern moviemaking; that's just the way it is now.

My point in part, I guess, is that the story can be told and not include "themes" infused by the author. PJ DID try to include some themes, and actually played up some aspects of the book that may not have needed to be. My question is, did he do it successfully? And even if he didn't, can't the movie still be a passable adaptation of the story of Frodo taking the Ring to be destroyed and Aragorn becoming King? Certainly it is no comparison to the genius of the book (and I would argue could NEVER be), but if we're debating Literal versus Non-literal, agreeing that it is acceptable to film it that way (referring to the question I just asked) would be a step in agreeing that a non-literal interpretation is itself acceptable.

[Telmelion]

I have never read "Letters", so Tolkien's themes of death and deathlessness that were listed are new and interesting to me. IMHO, I thought that death was one of the big themes in the Silmarillion when I read it, but to me it seems that death and immortality were themes only shown in the background of LotR.

However...I'm not going to dispute anything that Tolkien said himself, of course, so I won't argue about it.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Telmelion
I'm not going to dispute anything that Tolkien said himself, of course, so I won't argue about it.

I think we should feel free to dispute with Tolkien.

For instance, I think the hero's journey is the theme, whether or not the author realizes it. And I think the power of an individual to stand against seemingly unsurmountable obstacles is a major theme.

The author NEVER has the last word, you know.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Jackson had numerous references in FOTR to the "time of the elves being over" by Elrond. He also gave us the symbolism of the falling leaves in Rivendell and the passing of the elves in the Grey Havens, complete with Sam's "Somehow, it makes me feel sad" line. In Lorien, Galadriel talks about "diminishing and going into the west."

Agreed on those points.

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
In TTT, we have the scene between Elrond and Arwen about the "time of the elves being over" again and the need for her to pass into the West.

I don't understand this. Would wise, caring, non-racial, fading Elrond have disputed his daughter's choice to be reckoned among the Atani? He loved her, would he not have wished her happiness?

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Just as importantly, there is NOTHING in Elrond sending Haldir and the elves to Helm's Deep that detracts from this theme.

Does not a host of Elves showing up and evening the odds against the enemy detract just a little from "Our time is up, let's go to Valinor Arwen!"

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Elrond said that men will have to determine their own fate now. But the fact that he sent the archer squadron to help Rohan is a sign that even as the elves prepared to leave the shores of Middle-Earth forever, Elrond was willing to again come the aid of men once more. It does nothing to diminish the "fading of the elves" theme while providing the movie with yet another shining example of the importance of people working together for a common cause.

If Elrond really thought that Men had to determine their own fate, why did he send the archer squadron? Why was he willing to come to the aid of the Rohirrim if he was packing up for Valinor and telling Arwen that Men were hopeless? Why did it matter to this strange, cruel, racial character who has replace our Elrond? The one who said that Men were weak and there was no hope in them?

[Elfhelm]

The elves DID fight in the War of the Rings. They did not fight in any of the battles that Hobbits witnessed and therefore it wasn't recorded in the Red Book, but they did fight in Mirkwood. You can look it up. So, fading or not, they didn't leave it up to mankind to go it alone.

[azalea]

Also, Elrond did in fact wait (a long time, by man-years) until Sauron was defeated before leaving. I think the elves, although they were leaving ME, did not want to see it destroyed and taken over. If they hadn't cared, they would all have already left. Really, their realms would have been in a lot of danger if Sauron HAD won, and they were still there, becuase it would have been difficult to get to the coast without running into Sauron's armies. So that tells me they did care about defeating Sauron. It isn't as if all the elves were leaving right away, and they wanted to have their realms protected so that they could live in peace for the remainder fo their stay.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
The elves DID fight in the War of the Rings. They did not fight in any of the battles that Hobbits witnessed and therefore it wasn't recorded in the Red Book, but they did fight in Mirkwood. You can look it up. So, fading or not, they didn't leave it up to mankind to go it alone.

Yes, I am completely aware of this. However, it is totally out of character for the movie Elrond (the xenophobic one) to come to the aid of mankind.

Men. Men are weak. The race of men is failing. The blood of Númenor is all but spent, it's pride and dignity forgotten.

It should have ended that day, evil was allowed to endure... Isildur kept the ring. The line of kings is broken. There's no strength left in the world of men. They're scattered, divided, leaderless...

Originally posted by azalea
Also, Elrond did in fact wait (a long time, by man-years) until Sauron was defeated before leaving. I think the elves, although they were leaving ME, did not want to see it destroyed and taken over. If they hadn't cared, they would all have already left. Really, their realms would have been in a lot of danger if Sauron HAD won, and they were still there, becuase it would have been difficult to get to the coast without running into Sauron's armies. So that tells me they did care about defeating Sauron. It isn't as if all the elves were leaving right away, and they wanted to have their realms protected so that they could live in peace for the remainder fo their stay.

Yes, of course, in the book. But in the movie:

Tollen i lû. I chair gwannar na Valannor. Si bado, no cÃ*rar.

[It is time. The ships are leaving for Valinor. Go now, before it is too late]

Emphasis mine.

[Elfhelm]

My interpretation of the movie situation is that some of Elrond's people were going to Lothlorien to meet up with Galadriel's people, and that they together went to Helm's Deep. And Arwen was originally among the group but they edited her out. So what we are seeing as she sets out with them is the beginning of her journey to visit with Auntie G.

The reason I mention the Battle of Mirkwood is that it would have required yet another location and another battle scene to show that the elves actually cared, here.

I think we're getting out of hand here. Let's look at the discussion again. BoP said the appearance of the elves at Helm's Deep detracted from the fading motif. BB said that the archers do not diminish the fading motif. Elf Girl insisted that it did. I pointed out that in fact the elves did stay and fight, just not at Helm's Deep. So obviously, the elves staying and fighting does not detract from the fading motif for JRRT either.

So I am supporting BB on this point, and adding that in order to show the elves involvement it was necessary to have them at Helm's Deep because the movie is already three hours long! He can't show the Battle of Mirkwood so he has them help at Helm's Deep.

This never bothered me because I knew that the elves were against Sauron and wouldn't leave Middle Earth until the trouble they started with that blasted Oath was brought to a conclusion. They shot the Sheriff but they still had to deal with the Deputy.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
My interpretation of the movie situation is that some of Elrond's people were going to Lothlorien to meet up with Galadriel's people, and that they together went to Helm's Deep. And Arwen was originally among the group but they edited her out. So what we are seeing as she sets out with them is the beginning of her journey to visit with Auntie G.

Actually Granny G. Lol!

Anyway: So are you saying that the host was all from Lorien, and only a few Elves journeying there were from Rivendell? I was under the impression that Galadriel saw the attack in here mirror, and telepathically communicated with Elrond via Nenya, telling him to send a host. (All of which strikes my as very weak plot device-ing.) I may be wrong though, the whole thing was a bit fuzzy in explanation.

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I think we're getting out of hand here. Let's look at the discussion again. BoP said the appearance of the elves at Helm's Deep detracted from the fading motif. BB said that the archers do not diminish the fading motif. Elf Girl insisted that it did. I pointed out that in fact the elves did stay and fight, just not at Helm's Deep. So obviously, the elves staying and fighting does not detract from the fading motif for JRRT either.

But in the Battle of Mirkwood and the assaults upon Lorien, the Elves were defending their homeland, not actively coming to anyones aid. Again, I fail to see how a host of Elves showing up to aid Men does not detract from "Men have failed, our time is ending, let's go to Valinor immediately".

Originally posted by Elfhelm
This never bothered me because I knew that the elves were against Sauron and wouldn't leave Middle Earth until the trouble they started with that blasted Oath was brought to a conclusion. They shot the Sheriff but they still had to deal with the Deputy.

Again, this may be true of the book Elves, but the movie Elves seem all to eager to leave Middle Earth.

[Elfhelm]

Granny G., right!

The film has a lot of logic problems, the tied/untied hands, Gandalf not remembering his name even after seeing Merry and Pippin and Treebeard, Eomer doubled over from a single punch to his chain mail, fingernails that grow backward ... so yeah, I'm saying they have Elrond and Galadriel planning together to send elves from both settlements ... despite the obvious impossibility of them travelling so far so fast. Of course, we're all waiting for the theatrical release in order to refresh our memories. I could change my interp when I see it again.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
But in the Battle of Mirkwood and the assaults upon Lorien, the Elves were defending their homeland, not actively coming to anyones aid. Again, I fail to see how a host of Elves showing up to aid Men does not detract from "Men have failed, our time is ending, let's go to Valinor immediately".

Exactually. Sauron marched his troops against the Elves homes, the Elves did not march out to fight Sauron's army until he was defeated.

Appendix B:

...and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur...

The Elves fought for their own survival and the survival of their land, not for the overthrow of Sauron. I don't mean to make the Elves look bad, but the time of the Elves was over.

Another reason I don't like the Elves at Helm's Deep is because if they still have Elladan and Elrohir show up it will defantley seem like there are to many Elves helping Men. I know you will say that since Elladan and Elrohir showed up in the book then that prove that Elves at Helm's Deep was not a bad thing, but Elladan and Elrohir would have known Aragorn since his early childhood, and they had worked with the Dunedain of the North before. They came (IMO) out of respect of Aragorn and wanting to be by his side at the biggest moment of his life.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The motivations of the elves are discussed in great detail in letters, one need not speculate on what Tolkien was trying to present. And I wouldn't worry about being hard on the elves Melko, Tolkien was hard on them also.

[IronParrot]

Aw man, I leave for a few days and look what happens... so much to respond to. Guess I'm booking off all day tomorrow so I can spend it catching up.