Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Artanis]

Why did Fëanor want a tress of Galadriel's hair? I don't think he meant to make something out of it, I think he just wanted to possess and cherish it, as a thing of immense beauty.

Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Feanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair.

When I read this again I'm wondering about Fëanor. From what we are told about him elsewhere, it seems completely out of character for him to beg for anything, and moreover three times! Apparently there's more to this Elf than we think.

Why did Galadriel deny Fëanor some of her hair? Because, as has been pointed out, a gift of hair is a very personal thing, and Galadriel did not have a friendly relationship with Fëanor. Now one may say this was a sad circumstance, but quite understandable from her point of view, since she clearly saw the darkness that had fallen upon him. Her fault was not the denial as such, but her lack of insight into herself and the rest of her people. If she had recognized the true sorce of evil and realised that the shadow had fallen upon all of the Ñoldor, then perhaps she would not have singled out Fëanor the way she did.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know, Elves were very gifted in foresight and insight, especially those among the Exiles. Although Galadriel may not have perceived the shadow that had fallen upon all of the Noldor and upon herself, she must have sensed somehow that Feanor was the one that would be the cause of all the griefs of the Noldor.

[Artanis]

Well, that would explain the hate and fear she felt. But why then did she take such an active part in the rebellion, which was led by Fëanor? If she thought he would cause the Ñoldor grief, it would be foolish to go along with his actions the way she did (I'm ruling out the late, unfinished version of Galadriel's part here).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well there were two hosts, Feanor's and Fingolfin's. The Sil says that not all the Noldor were of a mind to follow Feanor, or to have him as king. What she wanted was to see the eastern land, and have a realm of her own, and the Rebellion was a chance to do that, but it still defied the Valar who had told them not to go.

[Rían]

(OT, but in reference to Mandos mentioned earlier - I added the bold for emphasis)

Also from MR - "The length of time that they dwelt in Waiting was partly at the will of Namo the Judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will"; and "...and their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos, and there waited, days or years, even a thousand, according to the will of Mandos and their deserts."


And on-topic - Even in the Sil, Galadriel never seemed to want to rebel against the Valar - she just kept quiet, and "no oaths she swore" - "she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will." So it seems that she was just taking advantage of an opportunity to go to ME with some well-armed company. And it was ok for them to leave, at this point, as the messenger from Manwë said ("as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart") - it was just called "the folly of Fëanor". Also at this point, only Fëanor had been singled out and exiled, due to his oath.

Tolkien's original intent seems to be that Galadriel was not rebelling, IMO, and he even rewrote her story later on to make it even more apparent that she was not rebelling, in the version when she leaves separately from Fëanor.

Finarfin seems to be the only one who really acted gallantly in this situation, IMO - "Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone...."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by R?an
And it was ok for them to leave, at this point, as the messenger from Manwë said ("as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart")

But the Ñoldor still went forth against the councel and warning of the messenger of Manwë:

Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.

If Galadriel had this foresight concerning Fëanor, why didn't she put this together with the severe warning at this moment, and turned back?

Tolkien's original intent seems to be that Galadriel was not rebelling, IMO, and he even rewrote her story later on to make it even more apparent that she was not rebelling, in the version when she leaves separately from Fëanor.

I don't agree with you RÃ*an. From letter #297 (my emphasis):

The Exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained.

And from The Shibboleth:

So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth.

Galadriel is very fixed on going. She follows her own purpose, and here we also see her as a revengeful person.

I do not take into account the last version Tolkien wrote about Galadriel's actions in Aman. He did try to alter much of the mythology in his later days, some ideas he succeeded with, and some he abandoned. We don't know whether he would have abandoned the last version concerning Galadriel, if he had had the time to explore it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Artanis
I do not take into account the last version Tolkien wrote about Galadriel's actions in Aman. He did try to alter much of the mythology in his later days, some ideas he succeeded with, and some he abandoned. We don't know whether he would have abandoned the last version concerning Galadriel, if he had had the time to explore it.

If you are refering the bit where Celeborn is a Falmari Elf of Aman, and Galadriel and he sail separately to Beleriand and Amroth is their son, I believe that predates eitherThe Shibboleth, (or perhaps some other writing which I am remmebering) and is thus abandoned. However, dating much of his ruminations is problematical. In any case he decided sometime after the revised LOTR was published that he would not alter any 'facts' published therin, including the appendecies.

[Artanis]

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. I'll check the dates.

[Artanis]

Letter #298 was written in 1967, Shibboleth in 1968 or later. The differenting story of Galadriel and Celeborn is not dated, but according to CRT it is (UT) "the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-Earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life". However, the story of Amroth being the son of G. and C. was an early idea, I believe.

And yes, Tolkien felt bound by the published LotR, he strove to get his ideas consistent with it, as in "The problem of Ros".

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yes, it must have been the Amroth bit in the UT chapter on Galadriel that I remebered as an earlier date.

[Falagar]

*edited*

[Ragnarok]

I found him to be over-proud and definitely not a role model but he was one of the more interesting characters in the Sil. He does set the stage and help shapes alot of the events that occurs later in the book.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Attalus
No, Maedrhos, the evil in Feanor caused him to commit the Kinslaying. I really do not think any stretch can lay that at Galadriel's door. Galadriel did not know what evil act Feanor would commit, only that his evil was so great that some hideous thing would come of it. I am glad that Galadriel denied him her tress. Who knows what monstrous evil he could have hatched? And, hate is not in itself an evil. I can hate Hitler, and by literary extension, Morgoth and Sauron, and I absolve myself, because such evil deserves hate. So, I hate Feanor, because his evil is only a little less.

This is just sad beyond words. You know, when I read the LOTR and The Hobbit, I got a different vision. Both Bilbo and Frodo could have killed Gollum. In fact, Bilbo almost did it, but there was something inside him that changed his mind. It's a thing called pity. It was because of that that the quest could be achieved. Evil deserves hate? Not in the world of JRRT. That is what makes it fascinating to me, the idea of redemption.
Manwë is indeed wiser, because he can see more clearly the mind of Ilúvatar.
So hate is not evil. Such evil deserves hate. That is what Fëanor did, he met the evil of Morgoth with hate. It seems that you have more in common with the person that you hate than I would ever have.
Isn't that ironic and sad.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is just sad beyond words. You know, when I read the LOTR and The Hobbit, I got a different vision. Both Bilbo and Frodo could have killed Gollum. In fact, Bilbo almost did it, but there was something inside him that changed his mind. It's a thing called pity. It was because of that that the quest could be achieved. Evil deserves hate? Not in the world of JRRT. That is what makes it fascinating to me, the idea of redemption.
Manwë is indeed wiser, because he can see more clearly the mind of Ilúvatar.
So hate is not evil. Such evil deserves hate. That is what Fëanor did, he met the evil of Morgoth with hate. It seems that you have more in common with the person that you hate than I would ever have.
Isn't that ironic and sad.

It was Fate that destroyed the Ring. Not Gollum. Gollum was despicable. He killed his best friend to gain The One Ring.

It was Fate that both Bilbo and Frodo were prone to such pitty. In fact Frodo was talked into having pity for Gollum in the first place by Gandalf. Frodo had felt Bilbo should have killed Gollum. Then it was only later when he felt the power of the One Ring himself pulling at him and weakening and ever gaining more and more control over him that he truly understood the pain and suffering of pitiful Gollum. That stayed his hand then, and the words previously spoken to him by the wizard! It was Fate that caused Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom! It was his own joy at being unioned once more with the one thing that he most longed for. And all of this comes together. That is FATE.

Are you comparing the Silmarils with The One Ring? You are saying that the Silmarils caused the Kinslaying. That isn't true. The Silmarils were not evil, The One Ring was. The Silmarils placed no such influence over Fëanor that The Ring had over Gollum and eventually Frodo as well. The decision to murder the Teleri at Alqualondë was brought on by Fëanor's greed and pide, not some power of Melkor!
[FLAME DELETED] This is unacceptable for this forum.



Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Falagar]

It was Fate that destroyed the Ring. Not Gollum. Gollum was dispicable. He killed his best friend to gain The One Ring.

It was Fate that both Bilbo and Frodo were prone to such pitty. In fact Frodo was talked into having pity for Gollum in the first place by Gandalf. Frodo had felt Bilbo should have killed Gollum. Then it was only later when he felt the power of the One Ring himself pulling at him and weakening and ever gaining more and more control over him that he truly understood the pain and suffering of pitiful Gollum. That stayed his hand then, and the words previously spoken to him by the wizard! It was Fate that caused Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom! It was his own joy at being unioned once more with the one thing that he most longed for. And all of this comes together. That is FATE.

...or Eru. Had a quote, can't find it right now.
Anyway, dispicable? Then you have interpreted Tolkien's texts in another way than I have done. I look at Gollum as a very sad and tragic creature...

(Btw, couldn't find 'dispicable' in any wordlist but I assume it is bad )

Are you comparing the Silmarils with The One Ring? You are saying that the Silmarils caused the Kinslaying. That isn't true. The Silmarils were not evil, The One Ring was. The Silmarils placed no such influence over Fëanor that The Ring had over Gollum and eventually Frodo as well. The decision to murder the Teleri at Alqualondë was brought on by Fëanor's greed and pide, not some power of Melkor!
You are talking out of your bung hole! That is what is sad.

I can't see anywhere in his text that he compares the Silmarilli to The One Ring. But The Silmarilli made people want them like the Ring did, just look at Thingol. And the Dwarves of Nogrod.
In fact, they were very much alike. Greed is a central point in Tolkien's texts, and both jewels made other people want them, they cast a kind of special "spell" on others. The difference is that the Ring was evil. The Silmarilli made others "evil".


(badly formed sentence, I know...)

I think Maedhros made a very good point here. In Tolkien's books, evil is not defeated by hate. It's defeated by pity.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think Maedhros made a very good point here. In Tolkien's books, evil is not defeated by hate. It's defeated by pity.

I agree, if you adjust it to 'evil capable of redemption'. The tricky thing is to decide when evil is no longer redeemable.

(BTW, I think it is 'despicable' )

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
[B(Btw, couldn't find 'dispicable' in any wordlist but I assume it is bad )[/b]

despicable. sorry, typo.

I can't see anywhere in his text that he compares the Silmarilli to The One Ring. But The Silmarilli made people want them like the Ring did, just look at Thingol. And the Dwarves of Nogrod.
In fact, they were very much alike. Greed is a central point in Tolkien's texts, and both jewels made other people want them, they cast a kind of special "spell" on others. The difference is that the Ring was evil. The Silmarilli made others "evil".[/b]

He brings into his argument as a comparison Gollum's role in the quest to destroy the One Ring and Fëanor's greed to keep the Silmarils and then his pursuit for them after he loses them, at any cost, including (but not limited to) the Kinslaying (for which he is wholly to blame). They are two entirely differnt things.

In Tolkien's books, evil is not defeated by hate. It's defeated by pity.

Well, then Fëanor was the biggest loser of them all. For he only had hate for the one who had stolen his prized possessions and murdered his father, not pity.

[Falagar]

Well, then Fëanor was the biggest loser of them all. For he only had hate for the one who had stolen his prized possessions and murdered his father, not pity.

Which is what Maedhros said:

That is what Fëanor did, he met the evil of Morgoth with hate.

I like Fëanor, not because he is a likeable character (which he indeed is not) but because he is a complex and strong-willed character, however evil his deeds were. So you may think he is the greatest loser of them all, you won't convince me.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It was Fate that destroyed the Ring. Not Gollum. Gollum was despicable. He killed his best friend to gain The One Ring.

I guess that the pity showed by Bilbo and Frodo had nothing to do with that then.
From the Letters of JRRT # 153

a word to me of moral and imaginative worth: it is the Pity of Bilbo and later Frodo that ultimately allows the Quest to be achieved

From the Letters of JRRT # 181

But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden.

I guess we would have to take Ruinel's word over that of JRRT. Not.

Originally posted by Ruinel
It was Fate that both Bilbo and Frodo were prone to such pitty. In fact Frodo was talked into having pity for Gollum in the first place by Gandalf. Frodo had felt Bilbo should have killed Gollum.

You cannot make people be receptive to pity.
From The Hobbit: Riddles in the Dark

Bilbo almost stopped breathing, and went stiff himself. He was desperate. He must get away, out of this horrible darkness, while he had any strength left. He must fight. He must stab the foul thing, put its eyes out, kill it. It meant to kill him. No, not a fair fight. He was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or tried to yet. And he was miserable, alone, lost. A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror, welled up in Bilbo's heart: a glimpse of endless unmarked days without light or hope of betterment, hard stone, cold fish, sneaking and whispering. All these thoughts passed in a flash of a second. He trembled. And then quite suddenly in another flash, as if lifted by a new strength and resolve, he leaped.

And he had the one ring for only a moment.

Originally posted by Ruinel
Then it was only later when he felt the power of the One Ring himself pulling at him and weakening and ever gaining more and more control over him that he truly understood the pain and suffering of pitiful Gollum. That stayed his hand then, and the words previously spoken to him by the wizard! It was Fate that caused Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom! It was his own joy at being unioned once more with the one thing that he most longed for. And all of this comes together. That is FATE.

From LOTR: The Taming of Sméagol

`Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him.'

Without the Ring, Frodo would have still pitied him. The Ring only could give you more insight into things, yet it couldn't change you who where for the good only for the worse. Don't give me the obnoxious idea that it was because of the Ring that Frodo pitied Gollum, it demeans his character.

Originally posted by Ruinel
Are you comparing the Silmarils with The One Ring? You are saying that the Silmarils caused the Kinslaying. That isn't true. The Silmarils were not evil, The One Ring was. The Silmarils placed no such influence over Fëanor that The Ring had over Gollum and eventually Frodo as well. The decision to murder the Teleri at Alqualondë was brought on by Fëanor's greed and pide, not some power of Melkor!

I'm talking in chinese here. Why is it that you like to put words in my posts that are not there.

Originally posted by Ruinel
You are talking out of your bung hole! That is what is sad.

Regardless of what I feel, I will not lower myself to such words as you do Ruinel.
The fact that the Quest was achieved is because of the pity of both Bilbo and Frodo. Because of that they were granted a grace, it was not the other way around. They had pity because they were good persons, not because they had a part to play in the Quest.
It's sad that after reading it, you missed the most important point of the book. The evil of the world was defeated by people who used pity for their enemies. Good defeated evil. It was no mere luck.

[Ruinel]

I think Fëanor was a necessary evil to make the stories work. His story was the basis for nearly the entire Sil. But I refuse to put him up on a pedestal and to say that Fëanor was a great Elf only because he made the Silmarils and took a whole people away from Valinor and ignore the terrible things that his character did would not be right.