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Old 02-09-2003, 10:21 AM   #141
Artanis
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I know - check "Men in the Silm" thread in the Sil forum
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Old 02-09-2003, 11:18 AM   #142
Maedhros
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
Don't call Tour a joke, Maedhros. He was chosen by Ulmo. If that doesn't account for his valour, I don't know what would.
Hmmmmmmm, Húrin rejected being a captain under Morgoth's forces. But in all reality, you can't compare Tuor to Húrin.
I think that R*an too would have that opinion.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-09-2003, 11:39 AM   #143
Artanis
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You're doing the comparison, not me

Edit: A misinterpretation
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Last edited by Artanis : 02-09-2003 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 02-09-2003, 01:14 PM   #144
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I think that although Tolkien says that Hurin was the greatest of the Edain, people may not see or agree with that because although he was held captive and endured this captivity for many years, outside of his actions in the Nirnaeth, there really isn't many deeds to note of Hurin because of his lengthy captivity.
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:34 AM   #145
The Lady of Ithilien
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Thanks, Artanis. That is indeed the quote I had read years ago.

It's not off topic to bring in Faramir, descendant of the Edain; not when one considers Tolkien's view of the past as a time when everything and everybody was always very great, energetic and intense, with the force weakening over time. All writers of heroic tales have taken the same view (though JRRT's presentation of it as the actual physical fading of the Elves was quite original, I think). Gandalf's little rant about the lack of heroes in the neighborhood in the early part of The Hobbit is another, more typical expression of it.

As the formula goes, once upon a time there were giants in the earth.....

And Faramir's "theme" is love: love for his brother, love for "that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor," and so he loves and is able to melt the cold heart of the Maiden of the Rohirrim. It's a much more gentle love than Beren's, but that is quite in line with the above formula.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien actually thought of himself as a Hobbit, and compared himself to Bilbo, but it was the devoted love between he and Edith, that placed them to be compared to Beren and Luthien. It is only about their love, not the quest itself.
Yes, I have heard that, too, about Bilbo and believe it. And certainly JRRT had an uphill battle to win the hand of Edith -- she was engaged to another and I believe her family didn't take to JRRT at first and put up a fuss -- and that certainly influenced his stories of Beren and Aragorn.

However, this modern tendency to compartmentalize things conditions everything we see today, while JRRT was coming from an earlier time, when life was not lived in little boxes of mind and body and heroes were indeed expected to be "well rounded," that is, capable of great feelings as well as great deeds on the battlefield. Indeed, through Faramir he decries the growing tendency even then to concentrate on the merely physical:
Quote:
We are now become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things...we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts....So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor.
Yet when the test came, it was Faramir, the "well-rounded," who passed it.

Thus I say, Beren was the greatest of the Edain, as he was great in love as well as war. Húrin's tragedy: Morgoth darkened his love. Beren's was never touched, and so he overcame all.
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Old 02-12-2003, 12:55 PM   #146
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Thus I say, Beren was the greatest of the Edain, as he was great in love as well as war. Húrin's tragedy: Morgoth darkened his love. Beren's was never touched, and so he overcame all.
Nooperz. Beren cannot be the greatest of the Edain.
Why?
Because Tolkien states that it is Húrin who has the greatest spirit of any mortal men.
Húrin is the greatest warrior of Mortal Men.
Húrin, despite his darkened spirit by Morgoth, never gave up and in the end he kept his word and returned to his wife.
You said it, Beren's love was never touched the way Húrin was, could Beren had survived it the way Húrin did?
Answer: No. Why? Because he didn't have the strength of spirit that Húrin the Steadfast had.
I like it the way you chose to ignore the fact that Húrin didn't have any help nor hope of escaping Angband and yet he didn't back down or broke. A lesser man would have done that, Húrin is not the lesser man.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-12-2003, 02:21 PM   #147
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If Hurin was so great, then why was it that Tolkien chose the character of Turin to come back in the last great battle to avenge the house of Hurin, rather than Hurin?
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:01 PM   #148
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Quote:
If Hurin was so great, then why was it that Tolkien chose the character of Turin to come back in the last great battle to avenge the house of Hurin, rather than Hurin?
And are you sure that that version remained in his last writtings?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:20 PM   #149
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its Hurin not only is he steadfast and indominatable but he killed 70 trolls in that battle while even before they started fightin huor got shot in the eye.and you cant compare hurin with tuor what did he do of his own will if it wasnt for ulmo he wouldnt have gotten anywere
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:00 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fingolfin_1st
its Hurin not only is he steadfast and indominatable but he killed 70 trolls in that battle while even before they started fightin huor got shot in the eye.and you cant compare hurin with tuor what did he do of his own will if it wasnt for ulmo he wouldnt have gotten anywere

LOL, go back and read that passage about him and the 70 trolls, it clearly says that the trolls were trying to take him captive. They were not really fighting with him, but instead used the rush mentality to take him away alive!
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'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

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Old 02-12-2003, 09:23 PM   #151
Maedhros
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From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Quote:
Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
And your point is? He utter the cry 70 times, I wonder how Tuor would have fared in his place. How many trolls would have he slained? Being optimist I would say 1.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:29 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

And your point is? He utter the cry 70 times, I wonder how Tuor would have fared in his place. How many trolls would have he slained? Being optimist I would say 1.
lol here we go again

Well if you recall from Unfinished Tales, the first chapter "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin", here is a passage from it:

Quote:
Therefore Annael led his small people to the caves of Androth, and there they lived a hard wary life, until Tuor was sixteen years of age and was become strong and able to weild arms, the axe and bow of the Grey-elves; and his heart grew hot within him at the tale of griefs of his people, and he wished to go forth and avenge them on the Orcs and Easterling. But Annael forbade this.

.....

Thus it came to pass that the Elves forsook the caves of Androth, and Tuor went with them. But their enemies kept watch upon their dwellings, and were soon aware of their march; and they had not gone far from the hills into the plain before they were assailed by a great force of Orcs and Easterlings, and they were scattered far and wide, fleeing into the gathering night. But Tuor's heart was kindled with fire of battle, and he would not flee, but boy as he was wielded the axe as his father before him, and for long he stood his ground and slew many that assailed him; but at the last he was overhwlemed and taken captive and led before Lorgan the Easterlings....
Granted Tuor was not fighting Trolls, but he was SIXTEEN and kicked major orc butt!!
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.'

'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

"Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!"
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Old 02-14-2003, 08:32 AM   #153
Inderjit Sanghera
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Hurin was kicking major Orc butt at 17, and Huor at 13 (or 14) when Brethil was invaded by Orcs.
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Old 02-15-2003, 01:27 PM   #154
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I think Hurin was the greatest of all the mortal men. When captured by the orcs he slew many of them. Each time he slew an orc he cried out something (can't remember what). 70 times he cried out.
Also i like what he did to Mim the dwarf. But sadly died like that. Its a shame such a great worrier died by killing himself, that goes for Turin aswell (also one of the greatest of the race of men).
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Old 02-15-2003, 03:23 PM   #155
Inderjit Sanghera
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Hurin slew Trolls, not Orcs.

And, I can't find a reference to Hurin worrying a lot.
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Old 02-15-2003, 06:33 PM   #156
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Each time he slew an orc he cried out something (can't remember what). 70 times he cried out.
See first quote in sig
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