Gays, lesbians, bisexuals - Page 8

**Nurvingiel** · 03-02-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Well, well, well, I see the sense of humor has been abandoned after all!

No, I just can't tell when you're joking Inked!

I'm afraid our respective senses of humour miss each other a lot. But no worries. (Googling "teh" was a joke on my part...)

Inked's post #4300 which got buried:

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

The marriage thread for that whole area, if you are interested, under general messages.

I don't think the non-traditional view has any relevance.

I think arguments from lack of data are just that. We do not know the source of homosexual orietation or heterosexual orientation. Social construct arguments can be validated.

To be truly confusing, brownjenkins contends that society is the arbiter of morals, but contends that this area of society in regard to prohibition is wrong. Go figure.

The Wizard from Milan · 03-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

See my 4300#.

I fail to see why your #4300 is a relevant answer to my #4298

Here is the part of my #4298 that is relevant to the present discussion and that I don't think your #4300 addresses at all

Quote:

I don't know whether sexual orientation is nature or nurture or both, but I know that my orientation was already fixed at puberty [...]. As you seem to agree with me, I still had three choices of acts: same-sex, different-sex, celibacy. You seem to call this a choice and we agree on that. I agree that the choice to act (or not to act) upon one's orientation is a choice.
But I did not have any expectation to enjoy the three choices equally. My point is that I did not choose to enjoy more same-sex acts than different-sex acts, that was exogenously determined. That is what I say is not a choice. You seem to agree on that, but I would like to see a clearer statement.

(emphasis added)

inked · 03-02-2005, 12:23 PM

TWFM

alas, there was your 4302

my 4309

your 4325 and 4333

my 4354 and 4355

etc, etc, etc

inked · 03-02-2005, 12:30 PM

aaarrrgggghhhhhh!

Computers!

The Wizard from Milan · 03-02-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

TWFM

alas, there was your 4302

my 4309

your 4325 and 4333

my 4354 and 4355

etc, etc, etc

No doubt there were, but they followed other parts of the discussion. I consider my point that homosexuality (and bisexuality) is an orientation and not a choice established until that point is specifically rebutted.
The fact that we discussed other points in the subsequent posts does not impact the point on orientation at all

Insidious Rex · 03-02-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

IRex I hope you don't do that search.

There have been enough non-inflammatory examples to debunk the argument anyway.

you clearly missed my point that such a search is meaningless. And since you gave me a mean bossy face I went ahead and did it after all.

And I got 4.27 million completely useless hits. Just to be fair, "christian" and "love" gives over 18 million. So dont give me your scolding speeches thanks.

Oh and Im very disapointed. I only got 791 when I plugged in "dog" and "tightrope" and "tractor".

inked · 03-02-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

No doubt there were, but they followed other parts of the discussion. I consider my point that homosexuality (and bisexuality) is an orientation and not a choice established until that point is specifically rebutted.
The fact that we discussed other points in the subsequent posts does not impact the point on orientation at all

I consider the absence of evidence to constitute that rebuttal. You may believe as you will in the face of the evidence or in the lack of the evidence.

Embladyne · 03-02-2005, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Lol, that was my point Chrys and Em!

I assumed it was

Just having fun here!

The Wizard from Milan · 03-02-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

I consider the absence of evidence to constitute that rebuttal. You may believe as you will in the face of the evidence or in the lack of the evidence.

Lack of evidence for what? Are you purporting that there is lack of evidence that I am attracted to men?

**Nurvingiel** · 03-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

you clearly missed my point that such a search is meaningless. And since you gave me a mean bossy face I went ahead and did it after all.

And I got 4.27 million completely useless hits. Just to be fair, "christian" and "love" gives over 18 million. So dont give me your scolding speeches thanks.

Right, I'm sure you initially selected "Christian" and "hate" purely for research purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Oh and Im very disapointed. I only got 791 when I plugged in "dog" and "tightrope" and "tractor".

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Lack of evidence for what? Are you purporting that there is lack of evidence that I am attracted to men?

I think he might have meant a lack of evidence that being gay is a choice. There actually is loads of evidence. Ask a random gay person if they chose to be gay. If they say no (or yes), why would you disbelieve them?

I think we also have sufficient evidence that you are attracted to men...

I just had this bizarre mental image of Mission Impossible 2... with all the masks...

Random person: Haha, I'm not really gay! *pulls off mask* I'm straight!
Random person's date: Well I'm not really straight! *pulls off mask* I'm gay! Bwahaha.
RP: Oh yeah... *pulls off another mask*
etc.

Embladyne · 03-03-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Are you purporting that there is lack of evidence that I am attracted to men?

"You just haven't met the right girl!"

(I hope you know I'm sarcastic here. I hate that phrase. Passionately.)

The Wizard from Milan · 03-04-2005, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embladyne

"You just haven't met the right girl!"

(I hope you know I'm sarcastic here. I hate that phrase. Passionately.)

Indeed I haven't. It seems I have met a John, a Matt, a David, a Brad... that are quite right for me though

inked · 03-04-2005, 10:31 AM

Hey, how is the CDC data good for teen abstinence (#303 - 305) and not good for my stuff on the GLBT thread (#4222)

? Inquiring minds want to know!

Insidious Rex · 03-04-2005, 02:33 PM

No one disagreed with the data presented about crystal meth use causing a rise in HIV transmission. Thats a no brainer. The issue was the point in posting the article to attack that god awful "gay lifestyle". Thats what people took issue with.

And by the way youll note that the CDC was mentioned in my article (most prominantly) because they CENSORED their OWN studies that showed that proper sex education was a useful tool in combatting pregnancy and STD spread among teens. I mean how attrocious is that. Lets not give kids life saving information because the Bush administration doesnt like how the facts work out...

inked · 03-04-2005, 04:22 PM

I was not attacking the gay lifestyle, merely pointing out certain risks having been identified with specific behaviours per the CDC data .

If the CDC restricted this data for MSM and drug-users for the allegations that displaying it brought, would you be condemning them for their silence?

The data are impartial. They say what is. That's true for heterosexuals and homosexuals and the behaviours of each group, the use or non-use of condoms, the use or non-use of drugs, etc.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-04-2005, 04:27 PM

there's that phrase again, what is this "gay lifestyle" i keep hearing about?
I really take issue with that phrase

**Nurvingiel** · 03-04-2005, 04:59 PM

I'm with you on that one Chrys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

The data are impartial. They say what is. That's true for heterosexuals and homosexuals and the behaviours of each group, the use or non-use of condoms, the use or non-use of drugs, etc.

Data is impartial, but conclusions are not. That's what I, and others perhaps, were really taking issue with.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you were trying to use the data to show that homosexuality is harmful. It's this conclusion that bothers me, but sorry if you didn't reach that conclusion. You do get jumped on a lot, I wouldn't want to do it unfairly.

Embladyne · 03-05-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

there's that phrase again, what is this "gay lifestyle" i keep hearing about?
I really take issue with that phrase

Yeah, me too, for reasons I've previously and clearly stated.

inked · 03-05-2005, 09:34 PM

Well, IR said gay lifestyle.

So, if the opinion is that there is no such ting as a gay lifestyle that is because:
a) you find the term denigratory;
b) you think that there is no difference between gay and straight people;
c) you think that there is no significance to which orifices are used for sex;
d) you think that all the acronyms (e.g., MSM - men who have sex with men,
WSW - women who have sex with women, etc) are preferable;
e) you think that the term gay lifestyle is discriminatory;
f) grouping people by behavior is intrinsically wrong morally no matter how
effective it may be in monitoring behavior and effects/affects?

I fail to see the opposition to gay lifestyle as a descriptor as valid. And, as I have quoted afore, it does define behavioral consistencies remarkable over about 50 yrs of documented research.

What do you suggest as an alternative to descriptive language?

The Wizard from Milan · 03-05-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Well, IR said gay lifestyle.

You see, inked, it all depends on how you say "gay lifestyle".
If you imply that being gay is a lifestyle, then the expression "gay lifestyle" is criticizable. If you use "gay lifestyle" as a synonim for lewd, then the expression is criticizable.
On the other hand, if I say "the gay lifestyle includes more fruits and vegetables than the average american's lifestyle", then it is fine.
It is not the word per se that matter, it is the meaning given to it by the person saying it.
It is not the fingers with which "gay lifestyle" is typed that matter; it is the heart with which "gay lifestyle" is typed that matters.
When you write "gay lifestyle" do you mean to say that gay people's love for each other is Good? If so, than I don't think that the actual choice of words matters that much

03-02-2005, 12:23 PM	#143
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	TWFM alas, there was your 4302 my 4309 your 4325 and 4333 my 4354 and 4355 etc, etc, etc __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

03-02-2005, 12:30 PM	#144
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	aaarrrgggghhhhhh! Computers! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 03-02-2005 at 12:31 PM. Reason: duplicate

03-04-2005, 10:31 AM	#153
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Hey, how is the CDC data good for teen abstinence (#303 - 305) and not good for my stuff on the GLBT thread (#4222) ? Inquiring minds want to know! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 03-04-2005 at 10:33 AM.

03-04-2005, 02:33 PM	#154
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	No one disagreed with the data presented about crystal meth use causing a rise in HIV transmission. Thats a no brainer. The issue was the point in posting the article to attack that god awful "gay lifestyle". Thats what people took issue with. And by the way youll note that the CDC was mentioned in my article (most prominantly) because they CENSORED their OWN studies that showed that proper sex education was a useful tool in combatting pregnancy and STD spread among teens. I mean how attrocious is that. Lets not give kids life saving information because the Bush administration doesnt like how the facts work out... __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-04-2005, 04:22 PM	#155
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	I was not attacking the gay lifestyle, merely pointing out certain risks having been identified with specific behaviours per the CDC data . If the CDC restricted this data for MSM and drug-users for the allegations that displaying it brought, would you be condemning them for their silence? The data are impartial. They say what is. That's true for heterosexuals and homosexuals and the behaviours of each group, the use or non-use of condoms, the use or non-use of drugs, etc. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

03-04-2005, 04:27 PM	#156
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	there's that phrase again, what is this "gay lifestyle" i keep hearing about? I really take issue with that phrase

03-05-2005, 09:34 PM	#159
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Well, IR said gay lifestyle. So, if the opinion is that there is no such ting as a gay lifestyle that is because: a) you find the term denigratory; b) you think that there is no difference between gay and straight people; c) you think that there is no significance to which orifices are used for sex; d) you think that all the acronyms (e.g., MSM - men who have sex with men, WSW - women who have sex with women, etc) are preferable; e) you think that the term gay lifestyle is discriminatory; f) grouping people by behavior is intrinsically wrong morally no matter how effective it may be in monitoring behavior and effects/affects? I fail to see the opposition to gay lifestyle as a descriptor as valid. And, as I have quoted afore, it does define behavioral consistencies remarkable over about 50 yrs of documented research. What do you suggest as an alternative to descriptive language? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

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