The Singers Thread

[Tessar]

Hmmm... well it's difficult to say for sure, but I think I'm definitely headed in the right direction.

I'm exhausted right now... it's really hard work to keep your ribs out like that! Especially to do it three services in a row. For the first service it was amazing and I was nailing stuff with ease that I've struggled with in the past, which is a great sign. The second service things started to fall apart a little bit... I think I stopped being able to support my ribs as well, so I started gripping with my throat a little bit in an attempt to maintain the feeling of support. My throat got a little tired, but it's fine now. Feels normal, or maybe even a little better, so no fear there!

With more practice, and as I build strength, I'm sure that wont be as much of a problem any more. I'm starting to understand how to do pianissimos though, which is great! I just expand the pressure of my ribs and let my voice be tiny, but keep it placed high. It keeps a lot of the ping, but gets very small. I'm sure with practice and time it will develop into the real deal, but I think I'm starting to understand it .

[Voronwen]

Ooh! Pianissimi are supposed to be very difficult for larger voices (and by "larger", i mean anything even slightly bigger than mine! ). Supposedly they come naturally to us light-voiced types, but for mid-weight and larger it's supposed to be very impressive and take real work!! From what you're describing, that would appear to be true.

It's good to hear that you're on the right track!


ETA, here's an analogy about support from one of my teachers: Visualize the air/support being like a big, fluffy, billowing skirt beneath you that is being constantly fluffed out with air.

That may not help you as a guy But it has helped me!

Maybe there's an equivalent for guys that you can think of.

[Tessar]

My ribs feel a little sore and tired today, and my throat hurts a little. I'm not 100% sure if it's from the singing yesterday or if it has something to do with allergies... but either way I'm not going to practice today. I did some vocal slides, so no damage... slid from the top of my falsetto to the bottom of my fry with no gaps or cracking, and it didn't do a weird break when it moved from the falsetto into the chest, so the muscles obviously aren't too tired to work and it seems like the cords are also fine.

But I'm going to give my voice some time to rest. This is all very new, I'm sure I'm making lots of mistakes trying to make it work, and there's no sense in wearing out my voice right now, especially since I think part of it may be allergies.

[Tessar]

Well I really feel like this support thing is making a big difference. Today I sang a little bit of Apres Un Reve by Faure, which has always been impossible for me to make sound good in the past... and today it sounds pretty decent! I sang it up to a D4 (i.e. the first arpeggio ends on a D (for 'dans unsomel') which I can't remember what key that would put it in... but it worked out nicely.

It's just weird... the amount of pressure I have to sustain on my ribs feels enormous. I feel like having that much pressure there -should- be making me tense, and closing off my voice... but when I do it my throat feels free, and my voice is fuller than it used to be and SO much more controllable. It's just weird.

It's like... you're lifting a 100lb weight, and you KNOW its a really heavy weight, and that you normally couldn't budge it... but strangely when you go to lift it the weight feels light as a feather. You know? My brain is telling me that with that much effort put into holding my ribs out my throat should be tight, but the actual physical reaction is totally different.


I am having a problem with a slightly unfocused sound (which has always been a problem--nothing new) and using that 'roar' seems to help quite a bit with it. I think it's just a placement issue. I can't focus on it too much though, or the support slips because I stop thinking about it. Well, one step at a time. The support is more important for the moment, IMO, because I think the support will help preserve my voice during the upcoming rehearsals . Plus I already know (somewhat! ) how to deal with the placement, I just need to be able to focus on it long enough to do it .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

It's just weird... the amount of pressure I have to sustain on my ribs feels enormous. I feel like having that much pressure there -should- be making me tense, and closing off my voice... but when I do it my throat feels free, and my voice is fuller than it used to be and SO much more controllable. It's just weird.

I both can relate and not relate. I almost wonder if you're trying too hard? But let your teacher handle it.

Well, one step at a time.

That's the way to go! Eventually one thing will become like second nature and then you can concentrate on the next.

While practicing today, i was thinking about what you've said about classifying our voices by what we sing (the repertoire). I *still* think, going by the music that i sing the most comfortably, healthfully, and technically well, that i fall somewhere between lyric and coloratura One of my teachers said once that there are some voices that fall between categories and therefore cannot be classified, and maybe that's what's going on here. If you want i could list some of my best arias and see what you think..?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

While practicing today, i was thinking about what you've said about classifying our voices by what we sing (the repertoire). I *still* think, going by the music that i sing the most comfortably, healthfully, and technically well, that i fall somewhere between lyric and coloratura One of my teachers said once that there are some voices that fall between categories and therefore cannot be classified, and maybe that's what's going on here. If you want i could list some of my best arias and see what you think..?

Yes, some voices do fall 'between' classifications. But once again it all comes down to picking a label that makes you marketable and shows the people hiring you that you have a solid idea of what you are.

For instance when/if I ever get a handle on the A4 there's nothing to stop me from singing something like Freddy in My Fair Lady, Raul in Phantom of the Opera, or even a couple of minor tenor roles in some operas.

But does that mean I'd label myself as a tenor? Probably not.

I think you need to decide where the MAJORITY of your rep. lies, and either label yourself through that or simply decide not to decide . Just call yourself a soprano if you want and cut all of the labels out .



I haven't gotten a chance to practice voice yet today (woke up late so I'm giving my voice time to wake up ), but I was singing in the shower a little and I think part of my difficulty might be in not evenly distributing the 'weight' of my support. I think I've been so focused on getting the ribs up and out that I've lost focus on using the back as well. When I tried using the back as an extra support for the ribs I think it made a difference.

Still figuring this thing out, but I do like what it's doing for my voice .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Yes, some voices do fall 'between' classifications. But once again it all comes down to picking a label that makes you marketable and shows the people hiring you that you have a solid idea of what you are.

Umm.... "light soprano"?

For instance when/if I ever get a handle on the A4 there's nothing to stop me from singing something like Freddy in My Fair Lady, Raul in Phantom of the Opera, or even a couple of minor tenor roles in some operas.

But does that mean I'd label myself as a tenor? Probably not.

Hey, you would ROCK as Raoul! I'm a Christine (one of the only musical theater roles that covers my whole range and doesn't sit too low ). If we ever meet in person we'll have to find a pianist and sing "All I Ask Of You" together, just for the fun of it.

I think you need to decide where the MAJORITY of your rep. lies, and either label yourself through that

Here's where i have always, simply, defaulted to "light lyric soprano". It simply implies a soprano voice that is light and high. I've seen coloraturas and lyrics alike being described as such in reviews. I've had as many teachers/coaches/etc call me a lyric as they've called me a coloratura. It's really ambiguous. I think "light lyric" in my case fits. I've been cast (in scenes) as everything from Sophie (Der Rosenkavalier), Tytania (Midsummer Night's Dream), Almirena (Rinaldo), to Pamina (Magic Flute). I'd call the first a soubrette, the second a coloratura, the third a light lyric, and the last a lyric.

I think in my case it's because my voice has some timbre and qualities of a coloratura, and some of a lyric. Maybe that *is* a "lyric coloratura"?

or simply decide not to decide . Just call yourself a soprano if you want and cut all of the labels out .

That sounds very liberating!!!!!

I think part of my difficulty might be in not evenly distributing the 'weight' of my support. I think I've been so focused on getting the ribs up and out that I've lost focus on using the back as well. When I tried using the back as an extra support for the ribs I think it made a difference.

Yes! The whole ribcage and all the surrounding muscles, both front and back, need to expand (comfortably, not over-extended) and contract, and be flexible enough to give at need (much like not locking your joints during exercise). You'll get it!

[Varnafindë]

Today I'm back home at a computer with a proper sound card, and we've connected it to a sound mixer and I'm listening to it with a headphone. So I've been listening through the sound examples you've given (of coloratura and such) with proper sound. Great! And I found some recommendations in the Classical Music thread as well, so I've been enjoying good music for a while tonight.

I'm doing "singing" over in the Role Playing threads - Tessar, didn't you have the character that my character is interacting with now (Eärniel is moving him on) in Long Lost Leaves? He's going to perform the Lay of Leithan, and she will accompany him.
It's so much easier being a great singer in a work of literature - you just write that you are

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

So I've been listening through the sound examples you've given (of coloratura and such) with proper sound. Great! And I found some recommendations in the Classical Music thread as well, so I've been enjoying good music for a while tonight.

Excellent! I'm glad you're enjoying the links!

[Tessar]

*sigh* Well now I'm confused. I'm starting to wonder if that 'unfocused' sound I'm hearing isn't partially just my resonance. I'll have to bring a recording to my voice teacher and say, 'this is what my microphone is picking up, is it just a bad mic or is that really the sound I'm making?'

Because I honestly can't figure out what it is. Listening to the recordings at a high volume I'm starting to think that it could just be a resonant 'buzz' to my voice that the mic can't interpret, but then again it could actually be a lack of focus. It's so frustrating not to know.

I've tested, and I really don't have much air escaping when I sing, so it's not like a breathy sound. I dunno.

[Voronwen]

It's better to have this, than to have a sound that's too tight or "pressed". This is a much easier problem to remedy, and usually just takes care of itself as your technique grows and adjusts over time.

Definitely ask your teacher about it, though. Has anyone pointed it out to you before? If not then maybe it is just your recording.

[Tessar]

No one has ever mentioned it to me. My teacher has said my voice is very focused sounding, and that I have a lot of resonance, which is what makes me wonder if it's just the mic.

I think I discovered that I'm over-singing. I thought I was singing 'fully', but it seems like I may have actually been forcing the sound a little. It has nothing to do with the 'roar' sensation... that stays. But I think I was allowing there to be some pressure in the throat. Again, it's something I'll have to ask my teacher about.

The support thing is still coming along very well, I think. Today I got my lower back muscles to expand/engage as well as the ribs, so I think that's improving nicely .

Hopefully I'll have a lesson this Wednesday!

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

No one has ever mentioned it to me. My teacher has said my voice is very focused sounding, and that I have a lot of resonance

Well, i'd listen to your "trusted ears" on this one If your teacher and other professionals that you've worked with have never mentioned a less-than-focused sound, and your current teacher says you have a VERY focused sound, then i wouldn't worry too much about it. Just keep doing what you know is right.

which is what makes me wonder if it's just the mic

My other thought was that perhaps it's just a unique characteristic of your timbre. Every voice has quirks and unique undefinable aspects that make it 'you'.

So if you're using your voice properly then perhaps that's all it is.

I think I discovered that I'm over-singing.

Oh no Oversinging is pain! Yet it happens to all of us at one time or another (yes, even the pros). I think it's because there is something that just feels so satisfying about a good fortissimo with your whole voice and body behind it! But think back to your "with ease" phrase and you should be all set!

The support thing is still coming along very well, I think.

Good!

[Tessar]

I gave my dad a lesson tonight. We haven't had one in a while. He did really well! I'm so proud of him for maintaining the progress we've made.

Today we worked on getting his ribs expanded and floated, and it made a MASSIVE difference for him. His sound didn't change a whole lot, but I could tell that it's going to be a big building block for him. The sound did get better, but what I noticed most of all was that it allowed him to sing with more ease, and the minute he would let it collapse he would start 'floundering' vocally.

He warmed up all the way to the F4. It's good up to the E, where you can go almost full chest, but when you need to start using some head on that F4 he couldn't make it sound very good because right now he has no idea how to use the head. His voice just doesn't know how to do that yet. But in a few months I'll work him on 'oo' more till he starts to get a hang for engaging the head voice (since in the male, baritone/bass voice an 'oo' is already bringing in head by the C4). But that's for later.

I finally showed him how to stop overblowing his cords. I had him go 'oh' and slide his voice up and down a little bit (it was small... maybe over a M3 or perfect 4th) till his voice got clear and stopped being breathy. I asked him if he could feel the moment when his cords fully came together, sort of like a zipper. He thought about it, tried it a few more times, then said 'yes'. So I then had him purposely overblow his cords a few times, and then I had him flip back and forth between the two. Now he can control it better. I tell him to sing with the closed zipper instead of yanking it open .

We tried briefly to get some vibrato again today, with no luck, BUT... I can hear his vocal muscles TRYING to make that vibrato. Like... they're trying to, but they don't know how to do it yet. So I asked him to try making vibrato every day for one minute. Hopefully he'll do it. I said just pick a really comfortable note, get the ribs expanded, then try for one minute on a sustained note to create vibrato. I said, "If the vibrato never happens, then it never happens, no big deal. But I think if you willfully attempt to create it, it will start happening soon."

I can promise you one year from now he will sound friggin' AWESOME!!! Considering the progress he's made over... heck, not even the entire summer, just part of it.

I wish my mom would let me teach her again :-/. I think I could do a good job this time around... last time we made a little progress, but not much, and she eventually gave up. Although we did do the one good thing, which was to re-voice her as a soprano and open up her top so that she stopped trying to sing alto.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I finally showed him how to stop overblowing his cords. I had him go 'oh' and slide his voice up and down a little bit (it was small... maybe over a M3 or perfect 4th) till his voice got clear and stopped being breathy. I asked him if he could feel the moment when his cords fully came together, sort of like a zipper. He thought about it, tried it a few more times, then said 'yes'. So I then had him purposely overblow his cords a few times, and then I had him flip back and forth between the two. Now he can control it better. I tell him to sing with the closed zipper instead of yanking it open .

This is huge, huge progress!!

So is the support. Both will help him a great deal. But when you consider that a too-airy phonation is something that not everyone 'gets' earlier on, but also that it's something that only the good teachers even know how to teach, he's going to be ahead.

That said, i think you're going to be one of those good teachers one day!

We tried briefly to get some vibrato again today, with no luck, BUT... I can hear his vocal muscles TRYING to make that vibrato. Like... they're trying to, but they don't know how to do it yet. So I asked him to try making vibrato every day for one minute. Hopefully he'll do it. I said just pick a really comfortable note, get the ribs expanded, then try for one minute on a sustained note to create vibrato. I said, "If the vibrato never happens, then it never happens, no big deal. But I think if you willfully attempt to create it, it will start happening soon."

Just make sure that he doesn't develop a bad habit of making a 'fake' vibrato. That can unbalance the voice and cause wobbles, etc later on. I'm sure this is what you've already done, but just tell him to support the tone well and just allow it to naturally flow. The muscles will eventually get it. And it's true, not all voices have the same amount of vibrato.

Regarding vibrato - interestingly enough, i've read that this has something to do with the timbre of the voice, and to an extent its size/weight (though the latter is not always the case, and it has nothing to do with range). There is the very rich "Italianate" sound that has a lot of vibrato, these are the people who were born to sing Puccini. And then there is the somewhat straighter sound that is better for early music, Mozart, certain French repertoire, etc.

Rate of vibrato is another interesting subject. Heavier voices supposedly have a slower vibrato, and lighter voices have a faster one. It has to do with the rate of vibration of the vocal cord tissue itself (and it makes sense that something smaller would vibrate faster). But i've read conflicting things about this, as well.

I think a lot of vocal characteristics are just unique to the individual.

Bottom line: Make sure your dad understands that he is to sing with his own voice at all times, with good technique, and don't worry about vibrato. I'm just concerned here about this leading to too much concern over how he sounds, and then a lot of beginners (and even intermediates) develop a bad habit of trying to artificially control their sound. As a result this leads to all sorts of tensions and issues that would need to be unlearned and corrected later on.

But i'm not a teacher So take what i say with a grain of salt!

[Tessar]

You've made a lot of really great points . I agree with you entirely, and in fact that's why we only tried the vibrato for a few minutes and I told him to only practice for a minute or so a day. I don't want him to develop a wobble, but I can hear his cords trying to make that vibrato, and it's not through straining either... I think (I sure hope!) I would recognize that sound.

So far my ears have not lead me astray, so I'm going to trust them a bit longer on this one and see if he either will develop that vibrato like I suspect, or if I'll just learn something new to listen for .

I really don't hear a natural 'straight tone' to his voice. I believe, and maybe I'll be proved wrong as we continue to work together, that his voice is meant to have vibrato... and it will probably be a middling-fast one like mine. Our two voices are really extremely, extremely similar.

The thing with him is just that he has never, ever sung properly before in his life that I've heard. His vocal muscles are having to entirely re-learn the process. He had such a huge bundle of bad habits that I am truly amazed at his progress, and that he has not once 'back-slid' during our lessons. I believe the techniques we're working on are solid enough that he is able to use them to get good consistency of sound.

He does seem to be picking up a warmer resonance to his voice, too. That 'dry' sound seems to be going away somewhat. I think when he's gotten everything working together he'll have something of a light, but very resonant voice. It doesn't seem to be a 'big' instrument, but I think it will be very resonant and it will carry really well.


Side note: About your concern with students trying to control the sound... I crack down big time. The minute I hear that starting to happen in his voice we just stop, and fix whatever is causing it before we continue. I have no intention of letting him slip into a bad habit like that when I know how to stop it.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think (I sure hope!) I would recognize that sound.

Oh, i'm sure you would. I think once we get to a certain point in our own training, we can start hearing the technical idiosyncrasies in others, almost automatically. And sometimes, to the point where it's a pain.

I have that tendency so bad that i won't ever forget the time my husband and i were invited to see a local community theater performance where some people we know were involved. I sat there the whole entire time having to shut down that little part of my brain that kept thinking things like, "She's got her placement too fact back" ... "He's pushing" ... "She needs more space for that high note" ... "He needs more support" ... "She's not really a mezzo" ... "He's making a fake vibrato!"

Before that sounds really wrong, lol, it was not in the spirit of making fun of the singers at all! It was more like, i wanted to help them! I could see where they were going wrong, and i was sitting in my seat, powerless.

Our two voices are really extremely, extremely similar.

How come i am not at all surprised?

The thing with him is just that he has never, ever sung properly before in his life that I've heard. His vocal muscles are having to entirely re-learn the process. He had such a huge bundle of bad habits that I am truly amazed at his progress, and that he has not once 'back-slid' during our lessons. I believe the techniques we're working on are solid enough that he is able to use them to get good consistency of sound.

That's great And a lot of that has to do with his age. He's focused, with lots of life experience behind him. This will make a difference in how serious he'll be about it and how fast he can learn.

He does seem to be picking up a warmer resonance to his voice, too. That 'dry' sound seems to be going away somewhat.

Good. From what you've described, i'm getting the idea that this was his untrained, "throaty" sound that contains a little bit of vocal fry. I'm sure it'll keep on disappearing.

It doesn't seem to be a 'big' instrument, but I think it will be very resonant and it will carry really well.

And that's all that matters.

Side note: About your concern with students trying to control the sound... I crack down big time. The minute I hear that starting to happen in his voice we just stop, and fix whatever is causing it before we continue. I have no intention of letting him slip into a bad habit like that when I know how to stop it.

Good for you!

[Tessar]

I was listening back to some of my vocal clips from today's practice, and I'm so frustrated. :-/ I don't know what to think.

I just noticed that it sounds like my vibrato has gotten RIDICULOUSLY fast! I didn't notice it at first because... I dunno. I don't think it sounds horrible, but it is definitely a lot faster than it used to be.

Here's a tiny clip... it's not that great, but I had deleted the others before I thought to show something. I go really flat because I was focusing so hard on not letting my 'ah' vowel modify. I was trying to make it over-bright in the hopes of letting it then slide back a tiny bit into a richer 'ah' later.

My voice just sounds so... friggin'... annoyingly bright. I have no idea if it's something I'm doing wrong, or if that's my natural voice. It's certainly the most free and easy my voice has -felt- in forever, plus when I sing that way my E's and F's are a ton better sounding. Aside from making it a little too bright, I think my placement was pretty decent, the support was good, and aside from the pitch problem (which was purely a lack of focus--for some reason I 'think' pitches flat if I'm not careful)... I dunno. I think the technique is good, except for the last high note where I let the 'ah' slip.

http://www.2shared.com/file/7134252/...stvibrato.html

GRRR! When I listen to it through the headphones it sounds too bright, when I listen to it through my laptop's speakers it sounds dark and throaty.

[Voronwen]

More thoughts about likeness of voice within families:

My mother, sister and i have voices that are not very alike. I've worked a bit with both of them, and while my sister is a soprano, her voice is pitched a bit lower than mine, and she can belt like nobody's business (i can't belt!). My mother is, i think, a light mezzo. Her voice is pitched lower than both mine and my sister's.

I think i get my high voice from my father's side. When we were kids, he used to imitate Pavarotti - to him it was a joke, but he actually had some decent high notes! If he had been trained, he probably could have been a good strong tenor. His sister has a very high-pitched voice, even her speaking voice is high, and she always made very tiny, whiny, stratospheric sounds at her dogs I think she's probably some sort of a coloratura.

And my great-grandmother on that side was actually a professional singer in her youth. From the descriptions of her voice from those who remember, she was probably some sort of lyric soprano. She also had a very high extension, though - some of my earliest memories are from when i was a very little girl in the 1970s when she was still alive, and i remember when she laughed and spoke to children or animals that she had quite a facility with access to an easy stratosphere. Perhaps she was a light-lyric with coloratura tendencies and this is where i get it from.

/rambling

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I have that tendency so bad that i won't ever forget the time my husband and i were invited to see a local community theater performance where some people we know were involved. I sat there the whole entire time having to shut down that little part of my brain that kept thinking things like, "She's got her placement too fact back" ... "He's pushing" ... "She needs more space for that high note" ... "He needs more support" ... "She's not really a mezzo" ... "He's making a fake vibrato!"

I can relate! I agree, it's not done out of wanting to make fun, it's simply because you know what you're listening to. I imagine math teachers must feel much the same way when I say, "Okay, so... uh.... if x is 4, and y is 5, and the result is 3 outside the square root of 2 then... z is... uh... well... okay, so... x is 4?"


That is so cool about your family! I just think is really neat to hear voice people analyze their family, because it's what I do too .