Discussion Thread Number 4 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[The last sane person]

Agreed, we get the point. And I dunno, some of the casting and armor making tolkien described sound almost modern...But he doesnt make much else sound too advanced... I think ME is kinda stuck within the City-States Age...I really dont see any empires or even kingdoms.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Agreed, we get the point. And I dunno, some of the casting and armor making tolkien described sound almost modern...But he doesnt make much else sound too advanced... I think ME is kinda stuck within the City-States Age...I really dont see any empires or even kingdoms.

You puzzle me, Sane. What was Numenor if not a mighty Empire? What was Gondor at its height?

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You puzzle me, Sane. What was Numenor if not a mighty Empire? What was Gondor at its height?

At the height of the empire of the "Sea-kings in Exile," the territory they held as their own, both Gondor and Arnor, was huge. Combined with their vassal states, truly it was an empire. The map below shows the extent of this empire at its height. Greedy Numenorean imperialists.

http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerd...0dunedain.html

[Gordis]

Yes, it is really impressive! And note that Tharbad is right at the border of Arnor and Gondor.

BB, Please, post the Plan of the Library from my post #139 above into the Info thread. If you could include my comments as well, it will be great!

[Valandil]

Yes - I tend to think that Arnor's borders were pretty static, but that Gondor was ever-expanding for the first 1000 years or so of the Third Age. I expect it was only sometime after about 800 that Gondor reached all the way west to Tharbad (which is why I presented their station as sort of an 'outpost' rather than a border at this point).

From Appendix A:

With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Mouths of Anduin.

Tarannon became King of Gondor in 830 and ruled until his death in 913, however, the next sentence after the one just quoted reads:

To commemorate his victories as Captain of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'.

Which indicates that his coastline conquests were achieved while he was heir to the throne, rather than seated on it - a likely time for a young royal to 'prove himself'. Taken together, this also indicates that Arnor and Gondor did not yet share a common border before his time.

Interesting to note that it was Tarannon who was King in Gondor at the time of Arnor's Division (861 - upon the death of King Earendur). Some wonder if there's a connection - if Tarannon had anything to do with it...

For more trivia, Tarannon Falastur was also the one who married Queen Beruthiel, and thereby became the first childless king. (Hey Gor... does Gordis/Aiwendis like cats? )

I see though, that in THIS AU, the ML wants to pre-empt Gondor and introduce Arnor's "Ship Kings" (basically numbering one ).

[Butterbeer]

hah! well thats part of the fun .. he WANTS to , but we are writing what happened in the unrecorded stretches of time .... but either it doesn't happen, or gets stopped halfway ... or it is just never recorded

I see though, that in THIS AU, the ML wants to pre-empt Gondor and introduce Arnor's "Ship Kings" (basically numbering one

well, to be fair: numbering one through to one: as approved by the guild of lazy Historians by a unanimous vote

funny that Val about Tarannon - i was just thinking ... mmm wonder where Gor ( ... i mean the Masked Cart.. i mean the ML and Aiwendis) were in and around TA 861???

For more trivia, Tarannon Falastur was also the one who married Queen Beruthiel, and thereby became the first childless king. (Hey Gor... does Gordis/Aiwendis like cats? )

Precisely .... it's all coming together .... we may laugh but later generations may pick up on these non urban myth theories and they will take hold ...

it was Gordis who was Queen Beruthiel ... i mean ....

BTW: does Gordis , like cats??

ANOTHER MAP

it has come to the watch's attention that a mysterious (possibly masked) and beleived to be evil and dangerous - NOT to be approached, at least without a saucer of milk in your hand) Kart-oggy-rappyFer has been fly-posting yet more maps around Tharbad.

Now, we have taken it down and stored it in the street (or will do in a bit...)

but, the authorities (mainly watson, to be fair) are concerned: is this map approved by our resident Architect, and would you prefer to do the usual feedback and additions BEFORE it gets posted up or should i post it anyway???

BTW i think SHAH was suggesting the relative period that resembles ME is the city-states period, not the later kingdoms and empires period .... not that Gondor IN ME was not an empire or kingdom ...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

but, the authorities (mainly watson, to be fair) are concerned: is this map approved by our resident Architect, and would you prefer to do the usual feedback and additions BEFORE it gets posted up or should i post it anyway???

Wait with that, BB. The Evil Cartographer really would appreciate some feed-back, especially, from The Good Architect!

Meanwhile the Cartographer plans to work some more on the Evil Map

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Val, has Oreturion left the library for today? Will he tell the Chancellor he has finished?

I'm slow answering this, but you were correct to assume that he would have done as instructed, unless I specifically said I would do otherwise (did you see where I added something like what you requested to their interview? You can check to make sure it's what you want - I believe I posted it about 11-10 or so (it was a placeholder post at first). I think it's fine if we 'fill in the gaps' to some extent, on little things that would amount to incidental contact.

I agree with Earniel about the Nazgul bearing children. I don't think the males could do so any more than the females. Maybe up to sometime before 2251 Second Age (but as we say, before that is when they would start feeling 'all stretched out').

On the matter of printed pages - I tend to agree now with Udu and Gordis, if we want to make this more realistic. We started this game with a somewhat anachronistic slant - with certain elements out of their place in time. I take it this is no longer what we wish to do? I sure hope we'll keep it humorous as we go though. But now I'm not sure what to do with the start of the thread, where Val is reading a paper... and what do we do about that nosy reporter lady? Are there perhaps some minimal printing capabilities... but they're just too inefficient for mass-production for whatever reason? So that a 'newspaper' might be a couple brief summations on what is now about a letter-sized sheet of paper?? What do the rest of you think?

The Library generally looks fine - but I'm a little confused about the stairs. Does each stair skip a level? There might be another way to do secret stairs in the same tower... perhaps a public inner stair that only went from the ground floor up to the top (or as high as you care to take it) and outside of that, a narrow private outer stair, which wrapped the other (disguised as a thickened wall - very thick) - which might only go from the "caretaker's apartment" level down to the lower regions, not even accessing the ground floor. Otherwise, maybe just clear out a row or two of shelves in the middle of the Ground Floor public library, to create a wide aisle back toward the potion of the library with tables.

Thanks once more, Gordis, for all that work you posted, as done by the mysterious evil cartographer.

[Butterbeer]

so, you agree with gordis and udu, but not me?

which part offended you?

yes, we had a paper - "let sleeping dogs lie"

(quoted from the The watch booklet instruction manual, 1.b - it's a very short and rather unfinished hand written pamphlet really with some burn marks and the odd red wine stain)

i sometimes wonder Valandil if you just skip over all my posts and questions, since you never get back to anything like approaching 2% of them ... for sure i don't expect you to reply to anything like all of them but maybe a half decent 10% or so (of those relating to actual discussion or asking you specifically a question etc) would be better: i wonder often here if you are trying to write me out of history? (i suspect not ... more that you just completely skip over anything i write - ok fine, two can play that silly game, if you like ... )

BTW: you do nothing about the "nosy reporter lady", thankyou very much ...

besides she was never actually intended as a reporter as i beleive we went through ... that was merely written in to help establish marty and ray soon after shah joined ... and partly because you posted val reading a paper ...

anyways she's potentially on her death bed ... though she may recover

the tharbad gazete: maybe its a wood cut??

or hand written by scribes in very small volume and disributed around by hand amongst the Society lords and ladies etc?

either way, best to leave it and not re-introduce it .. i'm sure we can all live with that?

I take it this is no longer what we wish to do?

i wouldn't go that far ... but some things as the introdcution of printing presses and the like radically alter the balance, imho, but i would not personally take that as a general statement of intent.

[Valandil]

Don't be offended BB - I can add your name to the post if you like. I just happened to remember the comments of those two most distinctly when I wrote it. Plenty of other people have weighed in - and I never meant to give an exhaustive list.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

BTW i think SHAH was suggesting the relative period that resembles ME is the city-states period, not the later kingdoms and empires period .... not that Gondor IN ME was not an empire or kingdom ...

I don't think so. I think she was referring more to the way those kingdoms have claim to very large territories but aren't really effective in doing anything with it.

Printing press aside, I've always found it a bit unbeleivable that considering the wonders that they are claimed to be capable of: the elves, dwarves and humans, between them haven't managed to proceed past a medieval level of society.
If they're all so clever why didn't they make it to something resembling the rennessaince at least?
And elvish society in Valinor doesn't count, they've got direct interference over there. Claiming that any sort of progress was interrupted by the Dark lords and the wars doesn't really count either because they were all in favor of noisy industrial stuff, you'd think someone would have come up with a way to counter them with better, non-evil inventions and that it would have triggered a change in society.

[Butterbeer]

well its these 'party universities' (that don't - we think - actually exist) and of course not to mention the killer:

the lack of printing presses!

A few noble tutors and so forth, a tradition (largely) of oral teachings and those to a select few ... so where would this renaissance come from?

Plus of course, isn't the whole point that the world hasn't been tainted by science and industry and the planet defiled into the mordor slag heaps and the trees cut down etc?

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

the lack of printing presses!

A few noble tutors and so forth, a tradition (largely) of oral teachings and those to a select few ... so where would this renaissance come from?

Plus of course, isn't the whole point that the world hasn't been tainted by science and industry and the planet defiled into the mordor slag heaps and the trees cut down etc?

BB, yes, I think that was the whole point. Tolkien wanted to create a world that was uncorrupted with the stench of modern technology, industry, destroying the forests through acid rain, exploitation and destruction of the natural resources and on and on. Newspapers need to be printed on paper. Do we really want to offend Treebeard and the ents by destroying the forests to print some poor taste tabloids? Remember Saruman and the trees.
Stick to parchment and the patient scribes spending years copying text and illustrations on the parchment. All you are out there are treated cow hides and the parchments last for centuries.

[Butterbeer]

Treebeard: " heh the papers gave arrived!"

Rest of Ent Moot gathering: "Hurrah!"

"here you go Quickbeam, here's your copy of VIZ..."

Wandering-by Elf: "err .. you guys DO know where paper comes from don't you?"

Last issue:

Paper Mill and press office stormed by Ents -

"read all about I- .... agggh!"


EDIT***

oh yeah, UDU: thanks for the happy birthday post to dear old melfena ..

welcome to the Practice, Doctor!


May this be an inspiration to Gordis: the JD thread still awaits ...

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Treebeard: " heh the papers gave arrived!"

Rest of Ent Moot gathering: "Hurrah!"

"here you go Quickbeam, here's your copy of VIZ..."

Wandering-by Elf: "err .. you guys DO know where paper comes from don't you?"

Last issue:

Paper Mill and press office stormed by Ents -

"read all about I- .... agggh!"

AHHHHHH!!!!! WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ENTWIVES! THEY TURNED THEM ALL INTO NEWSPAPERS!

Let's storm the paper mills!

To Isengard! Though Isengard be ringed and barred with doors of stone;
Though Isengard be strong and hard, as cold as stone and bare as bone,
We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;
For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars - we go to war!

To the paper mills! Before they destroy any more trees!

[Butterbeer]

another mystery solved, then! (all in a day's work for the Four docs)


well, i'll be off in a bit, till monday (prob monday evening)

have a nice weekend all.

best BB

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

another mystery solved, then! (all in a day's work for the Four docs)

BB,

The docs are the ones who have their fingers on the pulse of Middle-earth.

Have a good weekend. I will try to save the trees while you are away. Don't want them turned into any more pulp. Ahhh!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm slow answering this, but you were correct to assume that he would have done as instructed, unless I specifically said I would do otherwise (did you see where I added something like what you requested to their interview? You can check to make sure it's what you want - I believe I posted it about 11-10 or so (it was a placeholder post at first). I think it's fine if we 'fill in the gaps' to some extent, on little things that would amount to incidental contact.

Thank you, Val. Next time, please, post a notice in the Discussion thread when you make edits in the Main, with the post number. Yours is #488. It was by no means easy to find!

Originally Posted by Valandil

On the matter of printed pages - I tend to agree now with Udu and Gordis, if we want to make this more realistic. We started this game with a somewhat anachronistic slant - with certain elements out of their place in time. I take it this is no longer what we wish to do? I sure hope we'll keep it humorous as we go though. But now I'm not sure what to do with the start of the thread, where Val is reading a paper... and what do we do about that nosy reporter lady? Are there perhaps some minimal printing capabilities... but they're just too inefficient for mass-production for whatever reason? So that a 'newspaper' might be a couple brief summations on what is now about a letter-sized sheet of paper?? What do the rest of you think?

I agree with BB in the post above. "Do nothing" approach appeals to me more than editing all of it back. However, perhaps, in just the very first post, you could change the "newspaper" to "news-letter, carefully copied by a scribe". It will permit the newcomers (if we will get more newcomers) not to get wrong anachronistic ideas. Could you do that, Val?

Originally Posted by Valandil

The Library generally looks fine - but I'm a little confused about the stairs. Does each stair skip a level? There might be another way to do secret stairs in the same tower... perhaps a public inner stair that only went from the ground floor up to the top (or as high as you care to take it) and outside of that, a narrow private outer stair, which wrapped the other (disguised as a thickened wall - very thick) - which might only go from the "caretaker's apartment" level down to the lower regions, not even accessing the ground floor.

Well, I agree that the stairs might be confusing. I believe there should be a concise explanation to the map, I shall try to do it.
I don't want to make a totally secret stair, as you suggest, for the following reason. It was not the Morgul Lord who built the Tower. He came only three yours ago, so he had to adapt the tower for his uses by the fastest and easiest means possible.

Originally, I assume, there was nothing secret in the tower. It had two stairs in the turrets on both sides of the entrance; the left stair was going all the way from the dungeons to the roof, the right stair was shorter - going from the ground level to the third floor. Both stairs had doors leading to every level they passed.

Now the Chancellor wanted to close the dungeons entirely. So he ordered a team of masons:
1. to fill in the door to the left stair from the Hall on the ground floor,
2. to fill in the portion of the left stairs between the First floor (Khamul's apartment) and the Second floor (Scriptorium)
3. To conceal the only remaining entrance to the lower portion of the Left stair from the First floor (Khamul's apartment).
That is all - a week of work, no more.

Now the only access to the Dungeons is from Khamul's apartment, concealed by a statue of Isildur (one of the ML's jokes). The only access to the Library is through the Scriptorium, where the Librarian, or at least one of his assistants, is always vigilant. Does it make sense?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

AHHHHHH!!!!! WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ENTWIVES! THEY TURNED THEM ALL INTO NEWSPAPERS!

Let's storm the paper mills!

To Isengard! Though Isengard be ringed and barred with doors of stone;
Though Isengard be strong and hard, as cold as stone and bare as bone,
We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;
For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars - we go to war!

To the paper mills! Before they destroy any more trees!

Now that was hilarious, Udu! I have had a good laugh.
Yes on Entmoot it should be the ultimate argument against the printing press!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

:
:
Now the Chancellor wanted to close the dungeons entirely. So he ordered a team of masons:
1. to fill in the door to the left stair from the Hall on the ground floor,
2. to fill in the portion of the left stairs between the First floor (Khamul's apartment) and the Second floor (Scriptorium)
3. To conceal the only remaining entrance to the lower portion of the Left stair from the First floor (Khamul's apartment).
That is all - a week of work, no more.

Now the only access to the Dungeons is from Khamul's apartment, concealed by a statue of Isildur (one of the ML's jokes). The only access to the Library is through the Scriptorium, where the Librarian, or at least one of his assistants, is always vigilant. Does it make sense?

OK - now that I look at it more closely, I see where some of the stairs are shown not discharging at certain levels. However - the right stair looks like it doesn't open onto the First floor (Khamul's new apartment). I assume it does though, since you don't list any work closing that up (and otherwise I'd wonder how anyone got up to the first floor apartment ).