Journeys discussion thread

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Which two? Alagos and Tyaron?

No, not with each other, obviously.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The idea I had was something similar to the WK's knife shard in Frodo's body - that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive" around the time of the anniversary of the FoG and cause increasing nightmares and pain (in the form of heat) as the time approaches, culminating in full-on hallucinations on the actual day. Every year, Tyaron has had to deal with this, and he's dealt with it in various ways. He wants to get to Imladris before the actual day hits, so he can head into the wilderness and deal with it alone. There aren't too many survivors of Balrogs, so this isn't well-known, esp. since the hallucinations are something that he doesn't want found out. OH, and also, it reacts when orcs 'n stuff like that are near.

You could perhaps link the phantom pain to only the whip of Gothmog, the Balrog's leaders. Otherwise I'd imagine quite a good number warriors suffered from this, and the affliction would have been more known (even if less warriors still survived to the age), so he wouldn't specifically have to hide it. Only a suggestion, mind.

I like the idea of going to Elrond for healing, it might even start the fellow's good reputation as healer.

Personally I would leave out the when-orc-are-near reference, though. That might be a bit too much, considering orcs never had anything to do with it. But supposing we ever get to travel past Khazad-dum/Moria (I don't remember which of the two it would be at the time of our story) he could definitely experience some unexplained 'whip lash'. But it's your call.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You could perhaps link the phantom pain to only the whip of Gothmog, the Balrog's leaders. Otherwise I'd imagine quite a good number warriors suffered from this, and the affliction would have been more known (even if less warriors still survived to the age), so he wouldn't specifically have to hide it. Only a suggestion, mind.

Hmm, yes - good suggestion, I'll think about it. Or also, it was well-known at first, but now there are not many Balrog-survivors around so it's not well known. I'll think about it. The idea was that the hallucinations are kind of like Frodo seeing Bilbo as an orc - the person will see everyone, even friends, as evil creatures trying to get at him in the ruins of Gondolin, and he'll naturally try to kill them. He would have to either go by himself in the wilderness and last it out, or be tied up or something. And that's kind of embarrassing to a strong guy - to be unable to stop yourself from attacking your friends because you can't control being taken over by hallucinations from years and years ago. Anyway, just an idea.

I like the idea of going to Elrond for healing, it might even start the fellow's good reputation as healer.

That's what I was thinking - glad the idea sounds good.

Personally I would leave out the when-orc-are-near reference, though. That might be a bit too much, considering orcs never had anything to do with it. But supposing we ever get to travel past Khazad-dum/Moria (I don't remember which of the two it would be at the time of our story) he could definitely experience some unexplained 'whip lash'. But it's your call.

OK, yes, sounds like too much - I took it out. I'll keep in mind your "whip-lash" idea

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Or also, it was well-known at first, but now there are not many Balrog-survivors around so it's not well known.

But lets not forget that Elves have long memories. The children of then may now still remember seeing their fathers and other surviving warriors struggle with the affliction. I doubt it could have been well hidden the first time, for instance.

The idea was that the hallucinations are kind of like Frodo seeing Bilbo as an orc - the person will see everyone, even friends, as evil creatures trying to get at him in the ruins of Gondolin, and he'll naturally try to kill them. He would have to either go by himself in the wilderness and last it out, or be tied up or something. And that's kind of embarrassing to a strong guy - to be unable to stop yourself from attacking your friends because you can't control being taken over by hallucinations from years and years ago. Anyway, just an idea.

That could work, but it's definitely something you shouldn't go overboard with. If the halucinations are so strong, the chances of this thing being known are far larger than something less violent like Frodo's recurring weak and ill feeling on the anniversary of the stabbing.

In Frodo's case, seeing Bilbo as a wrinkled (orcish-looking in the movie) creature, was due to the Ring, not his wound.

(And I suddenly remember what this idea reminded me of, the celtic tale of Tain Bó. The knights of Ulster suffered from a equally embarrasing curse that made them weak and ill for several days when the realm was in danger. They got it for forcing a pregnant women to win a race, which I suppose is a far more embarrassing reason that fighting a balrog...)

I'll keep in mind your "whip-lash" idea

Depending on which way we travel to Lothlorien, we could come pretty close, or decide maybe to visit the Nimrodel if we want to get that story-hook. Although I remember now Tyaron would have been healed by Elrond by then. But maybe Elrond won't be able to lift the entire shadow off Tyaron, since it's been so many years he carried it around.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I made some changes to hopefully show that this isn't a normal type of nightmare.

It's obvious that this is something that comes regularly - the other expects the dreams, and knows when to expect them.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The idea I had was something similar to the WK's knife shard in Frodo's body - that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive" around the time of the anniversary of the FoG and cause increasing nightmares and pain (in the form of heat) as the time approaches, culminating in full-on hallucinations on the actual day. Every year, Tyaron has had to deal with this, and he's dealt with it in various ways. He wants to get to Imladris before the actual day hits, so he can head into the wilderness and deal with it alone. There aren't too many survivors of Balrogs, so this isn't well-known, esp. since the hallucinations are something that he doesn't want found out. OH, and also, it reacts when orcs 'n stuff like that are near.

Too wild? impractical? needs some mods? whatcha all think? I was thinking that Elrond could find out, and finally heal him.

Does he know that he will find Glorfindel at Imladris? It's no secret that he's there, but Tyaron might not have thought about it.

And Glorfindel is NOT a survivor of the Balrog. His body perished, and I expect that the new body he was given, does not retain such reminders of the Balrog encounter - so he wouldn't know about that detail.

Having Elrond heal him sounds great. But I would agree about leaving Orcs out of it. I don't think Frodo's wound gave him extra pain near Orcs - he needed Sting's blue light to warn him of those.

A different question - would it be OK for me to post "Rameldir's" text as a separate story on fanfiction.net? I would leave out the name details on Erufailon's cousins, but otherwise give Willow credit for beta-reading.

[Willow Oran]

that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive"

This totally makes me think of evil jellyfish... but that's just random. In the context of the story I think it works. You don't even need the evil magicy residue explanation if you don't want it. Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that Tyaron would being experiencing flare-ups of old injuries now and again and especially nearer to the anniversary of the events where he got them.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

This totally makes me think of evil jellyfish... but that's just random. In the context of the story I think it works. You don't even need the evil magicy residue explanation if you don't want it. Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that Tyaron would being experiencing flare-ups of old injuries now and again and especially nearer to the anniversary of the events where he got them.

I'll think about it, but I was thinking of Elrond hearing about the problem, and asking to be around when the hallucinations come on (because of his healing abilities, he might be able to help), then seeing something (it kind of comes closer to the surface somehow as evidenced by the physical changes in the scars), then specifically cutting into his body during the hallucinations, and finding and removing some type of substance, and the hallucinations stopping immediately. I'll see how the story develops, though, and decide when the time comes. But the input from you guys is helpful!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that [...]

I invented a somewhat similar trauma for Rameldir - if he ever touches a sword, he relives those terrible seconds when an Orc killed his mother in front of his eyes (at the age of ten, fleeing Gondolin). A dagger is a bit better, but will still give him those same seconds as a nightmare the next night.
This is why he's an archer.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm not sure if you read the earlier version or not, but I made that idea a little stronger.

I don't think I read the first version.

Hmm, hadn't thought about it yet - but as a fellow fighter at Gondolin, and one also of high lineage, I imagine he would keep track somewhat of Glor. Probably he would know something like "I've heard that Glor has come back and is perhaps at Imladris". Refresh my memory - how long has Glor been back?

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Quote: "What are the theories of when Glorfindel was returned to Middle-earth?
I'm sure Tolkien has got at least one theory that we can use."

There are about three, but the final one had Glorfindel coming back to Arda via Numenor during or just before the Year of Dread. I'll go with that one if Rian okays him as a character. Keep the poor elf nice and disoriented.

So he's been in Lindon for about a century, went with Elrond's force in 1695, got besieged in Rivendell, and has been there for the last twenty years.
It would be known that he was sent with Elrond.

[Willow Oran]

And I suddenly remember what this idea reminded me of, the celtic tale of Tain Bó. The knights of Ulster suffered from a equally embarrasing curse that made them weak and ill for several days when the realm was in danger. They got it for forcing a pregnant women to win a race, which I suppose is a far more embarrassing reason that fighting a balrog...)

That wasn't so much a PTSD type of thing as a 'you are now cursed to periodically suffer debilitating womanly cramps' type of curse. Definitely more embarassing.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

It's obvious that this is something that comes regularly - the other expects the dreams, and knows when to expect them.

I'm not sure if you read the earlier version or not, but I made that idea a little stronger.

Does he know that he will find Glorfindel at Imladris? It's no secret that he's there, but Tyaron might not have thought about it.

Hmm, hadn't thought about it yet - but as a fellow fighter at Gondolin, and one also of high lineage, I imagine he would keep track somewhat of Glor. Probably he would know something like "I've heard that Glor has come back and is perhaps at Imladris". Refresh my memory - how long has Glor been back?

And Glorfindel is NOT a survivor of the Balrog. His body perished, and I expect that the new body he was given, does not retain such reminders of the Balrog encounter - so he wouldn't know about that detail.

OK, that's fine.

Having Elrond heal him sounds great. But I would agree about leaving Orcs out of it. I don't think Frodo's wound gave him extra pain near Orcs - he needed Sting's blue light to warn him of those.

Sounds good.

A different question - would it be OK for me to post "Rameldir's" text as a separate story on fanfiction.net? I would leave out the name details on Erufailon's cousins, but otherwise give Willow credit for beta-reading.

Sure! Whatever you write is yours

[Rían]

Cute spelling error!

Sorry I've dropped the ball here, guys, but I had no idea this foot surgery would be so painful and difficult to recover from.

[Willow Oran]

It's all right. We're still moving at reasonable pace for this type of role-play. Neither recovery from surgery or good writing can be rushed, and when it comes down to it, it's the health matters that have to take precedence.

[Rían]

thanks for your patience - I'm even devoid of ideas right now, which usually isn't the case. The pain just kind of fills my head

[Rían]

Earniel's online - any progress on your idea, Froggie?

[Earniel]

I've got a draft for the start of the scene which I think is pretty okay, but LLL and off-computer activities have taken up most of my time. I was aiming to send you something after the weekend.

[Varnafindë]

Perhaps Rameldir should get a letter from his friend Calimon soon, saying that it's OK for them to come ...

Perhaps Calimon feels a bit awed about receiving the Hero of the Balrog-slaying?

Or slightly worried as well. They did not know each other from the Crossing of the Ice. Calimon didn't cross the Ice - he went on Curufin's ship ...

[Earniel]

That could definitely be an interesting angle to explore once they meet Calimon in Lothlorien.

RÃ*an, the draft is going to take a little longer, Tuesday probably. I got drafted into helping in my sister's garden all day.

[Willow Oran]

We should definitely explore that, but let's hold off on getting a return letter until the characters on the road are a bit closer to Rivendell, since right now it would mean jumping ahead of them by about a month.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

let's hold off on getting a return letter until the characters on the road are a bit closer to Rivendell, since right now it would mean jumping ahead of them by about a month.

I guess I was sub-consciously thinking air-mail-letters

You're right, he's only just sent off his own. And he said in his letter that they wouldn't be leaving for a while anyway. So no rush.

Rameldir could look back at the first session of his new training instead ... which will need another PM when I've made a draft ...

[Willow Oran]

Take all the time you need to draft it. I'll be off in finals land for the next week and it's bad enough that I'll be trying to write my faeries, much Tolkien's elves, before I've got the Satyricon out of my system.

[Varnafindë]

Good point, Eärniel:

Cirdan had included a number of empty books and book-binding materials, saying Elrond and his people would soon find use for them.

It's easy to just think of books - but for there to be more books to read, empty books are needed first, in these days before the printing press!

And I loved the water-fight at the end

I'm working on my draft, there will be something for Willow - eventually ...