The Anti-theist Thread - Page 8

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 08:08 PM

Yes, and how many times has it been re-written?

Khadrane · 03-25-2002, 08:11 PM

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, only one word in Isaiah 53 (which didn't change the meaning whatsoever) was different from the current chapter. The earliest New Testament manuscript was written only 100 years after the original. (That makes it incredibally reliable.)((At least that's what it said in some book.))

afro-elf · 03-25-2002, 08:16 PM

these are the links

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot...20&pagenumber=1

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot...=&threadid=1780

afro-elf · 03-25-2002, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane
When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, only one word in Isaiah 53 (which didn't change the meaning whatsoever) was different from the current chapter. The earliest New Testament manuscript was written only 100 years after the original. (That makes it incredibally reliable.)((At least that's what it said in some book.))

are you aware that after over 50 years that only 30% has been published publicly

Humm wonder what the hold up is

Cirdan · 03-25-2002, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane
When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, only one word in Isaiah 53 (which didn't change the meaning whatsoever) was different from the current chapter. The earliest New Testament manuscript was written only 100 years after the original. (That makes it incredibally reliable.)((At least that's what it said in some book.))

You should probably count the translations and the removal of the agnostic gospels by the catholic church.

Khadrane · 03-25-2002, 08:19 PM

The links don't work. Does that mean I don't have to read them?

Rána Eressëa · 03-25-2002, 08:19 PM

Khadrane? It has be proven with fact that the world is at least 4 and a half billion years old. Your teacher is wrong, and is obviously driving you to believe something false. When a person proves something and you say it's a lie - there's something wrong there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane
That's not what I think. That's what evolutionists think.

Once again, you've gotten it mixed up. Most people who believe in God believe he was always there. That's magically coming out of nowhere. Evolutionists believe everything came from something before, hence the term "evolve". Honestly, stop trying to sound smart. It's annoying to those of us who actually are

(just kidding - well, I am partly being serious)

Khadrane · 03-25-2002, 08:22 PM

Quote:

You should probably count the translations and the removal of the agnostic gospels by the catholic church.

Translations are basicly the same in meaning. There are just easier and harder ones to read and understand. I'm not Catholic, so do I have to count the removal of agnostic Gospels?

Quote:

Once again, you've gotten it mixed up. People who believe in God believe he was always there. That's coming out of nowhere. Evolutionists believe everything came from something before, hence the term "evolve". Honestly, stop trying to sound smart. It's annoying to those of us who actually are (just kidding - well, I am partly being serious)

I'm not that messed up. (I hope.

) The way I read it, you said. Do you think life (I wasn't thinking about God when I read this) came from nowhere. And I don't. Where did life come from in the evolution theory anyway? (P.S. I am really not trying to sound smart. I know I'm not smart. I am just trying to stand up for what I believe. Don't I get some credit for that?)

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane

Translations are basicly the same in meaning. There are just easier and harder ones to read and understand. I'm not Catholic, so do I have to count the removal of agnostic Gospels?

Can I say here, that one mans translation is another mans nightmare? All translations depend on the translator. In Egyptian, the word 'hqr' can mean: to exist, to live, to happen, an event, holy etc etc. There are other words I can use.

Translations from ancient hebrew, to latin, to english, and you're saying that NOTHING has been lost in translation? Not to mention the king james bible...

Cirdan · 03-25-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane

Translations are basicly the same in meaning. There are just easier and harder ones to read and understand. I'm not Catholic, so do I have to count the removal of agnostic Gospels?

Only up until Martin Luther

I'm unsubbing now. Enjoyed the thread but it is one that will never end to anyone's satifaction. Back to Tolkien related issues; The one area we can all agree one.

afro-elf · 03-25-2002, 08:32 PM

try it now

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=2186

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=1780

Rána Eressëa · 03-25-2002, 08:35 PM

"To insist on a spiritual practice that served you in the past is to carry the raft on your back after you have crossed the river."

Buddha said that

"Religion is for people afraid of going to Hell, not those who have already been there."

One of my good friends said that.

Khadrane · 03-25-2002, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Translations from ancient hebrew, to latin, to english, and you're saying that NOTHING has been lost in translation? Not to mention the king james bible...

I'm not saying nothing has been lost, just not enough to drasticly change the meaning. My words, I think, were: Translations have basically the same meaning.

Wayfarer · 03-25-2002, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Sorry if you missed my point. Religion is not a science. Science is not a religion.

Please quote me where I said 'Religion is Science'. I don't seem to recall making that statement.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Molten SiO2 is a disordered liquid.

If cooled rapidly it will form glass, an amorphous solid.

If cooled very slowly it will form symetric quartz crystals.

All of this is very orderly based on the geometric and thermal properties. Yet the quartz will "twin" as well as create an indeterminant number of crystals. Order exists molded by random and chaotic events.

Now tell me... these 'geometric and thermal properties' of which you speak-are they not themselves ordered? Because if that is the case, it is less an example of Disorder producing Order than Order producing Order from Disorder. you still start with an ordered system-the properties of Silicon Dioxide.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Does god manage the placement of every quartz atom in the crystals or are the atoms different from one another; trained by god to behave differently at a particular moment in time? If the order is managed by god what possible mechanism would you propose to transmit all this information throughout the universe from a central conscience being billions of light years away?

You seem to ignore my repeated statements that the laws of nature are set down by God. It's not difficult to create a computer model of how this happens-is it so difficult to understand that, if there is a creator, he could easily set up the universe the same way?

Furthermore, a creator God is not, as you have suggested, a central consciousness of the universe. That's a resultant god, and is more in line with naturalism than theism. God is outside the universe, and completely unconstrained by the rules he has set to govern it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
The fundementalist belief that the bible is the word of god verbatim is utter nonsense. Creationism isn't a defense of Theism as much as it is a way to defend the narrow interpretation of the bible by a very small sect of fanatical fundamentalists.

Not verbatim. Paraphrased. ]: ) Now convince me.
Ooh! You've resorted to slander. Lovely.
The fact is that without creationism, no Theistic religion makes sense. Just as without naturalism, no Athiestic religion (the idea that athiesm is somehow different from and surperior to traditional religion is manifest hype) makes sense.
Your assertment of 'narrow translation' is completely erronous. If that's what it says, I'm going to assume that's what it means, unless given a good reason. Am I really fanatical? Do you think?

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Most conflicts in the world are occuring because of disagreements among different theistic groups of fundamentalist who must kill those that disagree to protect their interpretation. Catholics and Protestants, Jews and Muslims, Othodox Serbs vs Muslims decended from Turks, Shiites vs Sunni.

Won't it have been great if god had just written one book for us so we could all get along?

Sad, isn't it?

However, I notice that no matter how different these people may all be, they all agree with each other far more than they do with you. This is not a valid arguement, and so I'll leave it there, but i find it interesting.

Now, Christians, on the other hand, agree with all these in part. The christian idea is that all humans naturally have pieces of the truth, but the absolute truth is revealed in Jesus Christ. Complete different matter, I know.

Think of it this way: The christian believes that the Bible is completely true, but that all other religions have fragments of truth in them as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
The earth is billions of years old. get use to it. This fact has nothing to do with god. The bible is wrong on this point. It was written by men during a time when there was little understanding of the universe and it reflects their ignorance on the issue of the creation of the world.

The burden of proof still rests witht he claimant. Show me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
People have found strength from their faith; good. This has nothing to do with science.

Once more I wonder at these leaps of, well, faith, that you keep making. I believe there is a God who created the universe, and that he made it to work in a certain way, and that through science we can find out how that is and predict how it will work in the future. In order to have face in science, you must have faith in a predictable universe.

Rána Eressëa · 03-25-2002, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane
I'm not that messed up. (I hope. ) The way I read it, you said. Do you think life (I wasn't thinking about God when I read this) came from nowhere. And I don't. Where did life come from in the evolution theory anyway? (P.S. I am really not trying to sound smart. I know I'm not smart. I am just trying to stand up for what I believe. Don't I get some credit for that?)

Yes, you do get credit for standing up for what you believe - as long as it does not contradict proven fact. Now, the existence of God is unknown, so yes, stand up for that. But to say the world isn't at least 4.5 billion years old is like me saying my grandfather is only 35, when everyone else knows for a fact he's 87.

In the evolution theory, there are many possibilties where life came from. The one I think is most possible, is that of a comet with living one-celled organisms that crashed into the surface (from where it came, is obviously unknown because no living person was there when it happened). Ultimately, however, no one can say where everything came from because they weren't there when it happened. Personally, I don't really want to know

Saying God created everything, though, is just an easy way out. Here's a small, condensed conversation between my father and I when I was nine (what I say is in " "):

"Where'd the universe come from?" God created it.
"Where'd the earth come from?" God created it.
"Where'd people come from?" God created them.
"Where'd God come from?" He was always there.
"Why was he always there?" Because he just was.
"How old is he?" Older than time.
"How old is time?" Pretty old.

I'm serious. This is basically what was said

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You seem to ignore my repeated statements that the laws of nature are set down by God. It's not difficult to create a computer model of how this happens-is it so difficult to understand that, if there is a creator, he could easily set up the universe the same way?

Furthermore, a creator God is not, as you have suggested, a central consciousness of the universe. That's a resultant god, and is more in line with naturalism than theism. God is outside the universe, and completely unconstrained by the rules he has set to govern it.

Could you not say, then, according to this argument, that God created the force needed to create life, and then sat back and watched the consequential evolutionary resultant?

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The burden of proof still rests witht he claimant. Show me.

I believe that I posted a link to this earlier on in the thread.

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 09:01 PM

Quote:

The burden of proof still rests witht he claimant. Show me.

Furthermore, you are in the anti-theistic thread, YOU are supposed to be convincing US.

BeardofPants · 03-25-2002, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
In order to have face in science, you must have faith in a predictable universe.

No, this is not true. Science is a constantly changing paradigm.

Khadrane · 03-25-2002, 09:06 PM

Quote:

But to say the world isn't at least 4.5 billion years old is like me saying my grandfather is only 35, when everyone else knows for a fact he's 87.

I think I said somewhere back that radiocarbon dating isn't always accurate. It's not accurate past 5,000(?) years. I would tell you the details, but as I also said before, I left my science book at home, at I won't be able to get it for awhile.

P.S. Congratulations on being and Elf Lord, Rouge Elf!

03-25-2002, 08:08 PM	#141
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yes, and how many times has it been re-written? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-25-2002, 08:11 PM	#142
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, only one word in Isaiah 53 (which didn't change the meaning whatsoever) was different from the current chapter. The earliest New Testament manuscript was written only 100 years after the original. (That makes it incredibally reliable.)((At least that's what it said in some book.)) __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

03-25-2002, 08:16 PM	#143
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	these are the links http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot...20&pagenumber=1 http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot...=&threadid=1780 __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-25-2002, 08:19 PM	#146
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	The links don't work. Does that mean I don't have to read them? __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

03-25-2002, 08:32 PM	#151
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	try it now http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=2186 http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=1780 __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-25-2002, 08:35 PM	#152
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	"To insist on a spiritual practice that served you in the past is to carry the raft on your back after you have crossed the river." Buddha said that "Religion is for people afraid of going to Hell, not those who have already been there." One of my good friends said that.

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