Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Lotesse]

Which is why Laslech neither fears the dark side, nor needs to be 'broken' by it - it is her own strength and choice to have Viv as a Rider.

[Serenoli]

Thanks to all who wished me happy Eid. The correct greeting is Eid Mubarak, actually, but it means the same thing, I think! And I'm glad to hear BB that your advertising (?) was a success. Buying new stuff is such a huge part of Eid

And, i've had some plan changes, and I'll be here today and tomorrow, ie for 48 hrs. So I can go on posting.

[Rían]

I'm glad you'll be on, Serenoli

Sane - I was SO glad I fell in with a guy who knew how to train horses right, and I'm glad you think the same way!

Congrats, BB!

All rpg'ers - Speaking for myself, I'm willing to stretch what I think is a very tenuous point in regard to the horses and go along with what the Nazgul people want, because this is canon + AU, but I really think it's wrong to have absolutely NO negative animal reaction. I don't remember seeing any negative reaction at all yet; all I remember seeing is animals liking the Nazgul. I can grant some unique temperament for individual animals, but given this:

from FOTR, Frodo speaking
"Then why do these black horses endure such riders? All other animals are terrified when they draw near, even the elf-horse of Glorfindel. The dogs howl and the geese scream at them"

I just can't see that all animals would be fine with them. I know it's an earlier time than LOTR, but I still think it's just a basic point that animals generally don't like Nazgul. And I stick by my opinion (and realize that it's opinion, but based on canon and my knowledge of horses) that a Nazgul would usually have to get a horse to let them ride it the way I said (but am willing to give some leniency in this rpg).

[Lotesse]

On a stolen hotel computer moment here, but... well, if you crave screaming geese, then by all means, post some!! Why not? The tortoises may scream too, if that is their wont. Maybe because Grey Wolf, Shah & I love animals so, and BB too, is why we haven't had the animals flipping out yet. Who knows. But if y'all want some animals to lose it, be my guest! It would make fun story, to have some of them lose it a little. Except Laslech, and Volcirom, and Lomi and the wolves. And the BB butterfly. Other than that, aside from complaining about it, Rian & Valandil et al, how about writing in some animal reactions of your own? Just a thought...

[Rían]

I was going to as soon as I got general consent, because I just want to make sure we're all cool with the groundrules

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

, aside from complaining about it, Rian & Valandil et al, how about writing in some animal reactions of your own? Just a thought...

Animal reactions of their own....*reads a little too far into that* Oh my...

[Rían]

heehee - I didn't see that, Sane, I guess I'm too tired. Goodnight!

[Valandil]

Well - as originally stated by "Animal" of the Muppets

"Wooooo-man!!!!"

How's that?

[Rían]

*pops back on to edit a post, and to say*

Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluve!

[Valandil]

OK everyone, particulars aside, my main issue lately is this: I really think all of you Nazgul players are over-playing the powers and abilities of the Nazgul. With no Maiar actively present, they have been portrayed as the Nine most powerful beings in Middle Earth. I think that is the wrong approach, and here is why:

First, from what Tolkien himself gave us. According to the Tale of Years, it was not until about year 1300 of the Third Age that the Nazgul re-appeared. I think they must have been really shattered by the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Fifty years later may seem like a long time to you and me, but to them, it was very short - and they were only 1/26th of their way toward renewing themselves to the point where they were known to re-appear. The way they're written in this game, the Third Age would not have been the age of Men, or of Gondor - it would have been the age of the Nazgul! Even if we suppose they now have their rings - I think the Nine were probably their most fearsome with their rings when they were still Second Age rulers - warriors and sorcerers. I think they became a mere shadow of their former selves when they became wraiths, ca 2251. In early Third Age, I imagine a Nazgul would have have been a pretty pathetic creature. That wouldn't be so fun to play, which brings me to the next point...

Second, I don't think this game will stay workable if the Nazgul continue to be portrayed as 'all-powerful' as they have been. It's been a tricky game all along anyway - with two opposing sides actively playing.

I wonder even if the game is (or should be) winding down. I had thought it would last a long time (like the whole semester - maybe a year or more real time), but maybe it's nearly over. Some things have been resolved. The Morgul Lord seems to have likely deduced that Valandil does not have the One Ring (since he immediately pointed out that Valandil's 'Elven Ring' must be the Ring of Barahir) - and besides, the Nazgul are being played in such a way that the rest of us are NOT realistically going to be able to look the other way any longer.

If we are going to wind things down, we should settle on some ground rules. I will post my thoughts about those later, as I cannot take the time now.

I'm certainly open to discussion though. Do the rest of you think that's where we're headed? Do you agree to my points about how the Nazgul are being played?

(one particular, btw - is Khamul planting a lust for Arastud in Melwen. That was WAY too easy, particularly if it was to be something that was supposed to stay. And, here she was - just coming off a nearly fatal bout of Black Breathe, then gotten totally drunk - and she's supposed to now have an eternal desire for someone in whom she has taken no interest? And ACT on it? In HER state? At Khamul's whim? At MOST, Khamul could plant a desire for a moment, but doubtfully effective on one so physically incapacitated, and it would CERTAINLY have broken his concentration enough that the Nazgul he had trapped in the upstairs room would have been able to break free.)

(that's not the only one though - some of it has been violation of the High King's chambers, property, mind and heart... I believe in justice, so those things WILL be addressed! )

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I don't think they're being so obvious that it'll bring the story to the climax this soon. They've been careless certainly, but I think they'll be more careful once Morgul gives them a talking to. It's far too early to bring the game to a close. Many characters and motives are only just now being introduced, there's plenty more story to go. And even if we do end up suspecting earlier than we meant to, our charcters don't actually have to act on said suspiscion right away. There could be all sorts of complications.

I do agree that the 'sorcery' aspect of the nazgul powers is being overplayed just a tad.

[Rían]

I wanted to address the "Melwen effect" today - you beat me to it, Val! I think it needs some parameters, which I would like to discuss with the group and hopefully come to an agreement on. I'm hoping this rpg can go for quite a while longer, but I agree that to do so, the Nazgul must not be as noticable as they are starting to be. I think as Maggie points out, after the talk with the Chancellor, it will be a natural decision for them to do so.

see you guys in a bit!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, that is a good point - you've semi-convinced me of the possibility, although I do NOT think it would be a simple matter of hopping on and riding off. I imagine there would be torture and fear involved - chasing a single horse into a dead end, beating and terrifying it into shaken and rebellious submission, and a lot of fight on the part of the horse at first, until it is broken down through brutality. Don't you think so?

Sorry, Rian, if I seemed to be snappy. I didn't mean to, that's sure. As you may have noticed, it was my last but one post of the day, and while BB’s time was 20 to 2 AM, my local time was 20 to three. So I simply couldn’t expand my post. I will do it now.

I know full well you are not a simple movie-fan, I know you have read Letters and HOME. The more is the pity, that regarding the nazgul horses, you apparently let PJ's Very Bad Movie lead you astray.
Please check the sources: NOWHERE in Tolkiens works did he speak of HORSE ABUSE by nazgul. It is entirely movie concept. You said yourself that nothing can be gained by beating a horse into obedience. I can’t agree more. Why would a nazgul beat his horse?

Imagine someone coming to a circus and seeing grown-up lions jumping through flames and doing other weird things, completely unnatural for them. One is likely to say: "How they must have been abused and beaten, to achieve such results!" And he will be wrong. No amount of beating and abuse will make a free grown-up lion do these things. The circus lions were most likely born in the circus or in a zoo, used to men from a very young age and taught long and gradually, with more emphasis on rewards, than on punishments.

The own nazgul war-horses were "born and bred in the service of Mordor" (LoTR). That is how I see it: very young ones were slowly and gradually taught to bear the presence of a nazgul, maybe even enjoy it. It was a NECESSARY THING, because a ringless nazgul is ALWAYS frightening for men and animals, whether he wishes it not (the one who spoke with Maggot or with Butterbeer were trying to appear normal men, but failed).

But, above thit basic level of fear, the nazgul were capable of inducing mortal fear on purpose, much higher levels of fear, like the Witch-King at Osgiliath and at the Pelennor. The horse, that the nazgul himself rides, is the closest to the epicentre of this fear-spell. How can a horse bear it? By abuse? Hardly. Perhaps some spells were involved, but surely no beating. I believe, the horses were gradually taught to resist the more and more intense doses of fear spell, projected by the nazgul, and finally the full amount of it. That’s how the Witch-King’s horse remained calm, when all around the battlefield man and beasts alike ran blindly away.
That was about their own regular war-horses.

Now the situation we were discussing. A nazgul, left without a mount in the middle of Rohan, wants a free ride home. No, of course it is NOT "a simple matter of hopping on and riding off". The horse will be as afraid of the nazgul as geese and dogs in the Shire.

But how would a nazgul "chase a single horse into a dead end"? On foot? As you say yourself, nazgul do have limitations. One of them is not being able to run as fast as a horse. So the horse should be stopped somehow. How? Like that: "Suddenly he knew in his heart that they were silently commanding him to wait. Then at once fear and hatred awoke in him." And " In any case he felt that he was commanded urgently to halt. Hatred again stirred in him, but he had no longer the strength to refuse" – Frodo, flight to the Ford.

The nazgul could send commands to people (and likely to animals as well) at a distance. So, upon the nazgul mental command, the horse stops. The nazgul mounts. Of course, the horse will be terrified and rebellious and to ride it will necessitate constant mind concentration from the Rider. But why would he beat it? To make it even more fearful? I imagine he will even try to say some soothing words to the terrified animal .
Of course, this horse, even if brought to Mordor, will never become the nazgul’s regular war-horse. Perhaps, left alone, it will die of mental strain and long-lasting fear.

That is my take on the matter. I believe it is realistic and follows the canon. I just had to explain it at length, because some of you may think that I believe that all the animals instantly come to love nazgul, or something, like in the tale of Snow-White.
Not at all.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Sorry, Rian, if I seemed to be snappy. I didn't mean to, that's sure. As you may have noticed, it was my last but one post of the day, and while BB’s time was 20 to 2 AM, my local time was 20 to three.

OK, thanks - I did feel like you were snapping a bit at what was a sincere, thought-out post, based on my readings, of how a Nazgul would subdue a horse at need, also based on my extensive knowledge of horses. Sorry you had such a late night, and I hope things ease up for you soon!

The more is the pity, that regarding the nazgul horses, you apparently let PJ's Very Bad Movie lead you astray.

AbsoLUTELY not!! Why do you even say this? The explanation that you give below is not in Tolkien, and neither is mine. They are both best-guess opinions based on canon - NOT the movie.

Please check the sources: NOWHERE in Tolkiens works did he speak of HORSE ABUSE by nazgul. It is entirely movie concept.

Where? I don't even remember it. And I certainly wouldn't take any new concept from the movies without thinking about it first.

You said yourself that nothing can be gained by beating a horse into obedience. I can’t agree more. Why would a nazgul beat his horse?

I NEVER said that nothing can be gained by beating a horse into submission. On the contrary, quite a lot can be gained, at least temporarily, if you don't care about the horse! Or if you're really up a tree. I myself would definitely "abuse" a horse if it was for a short period that would save a life (a person's life, or the horse's life), or for something other urgent need. I think that a nazgul would beat a horse if he thought it would further his means.

The own nazgul war-horses were "born and bred in the service of Mordor" (LoTR). That is how I see it: very young ones were slowly and gradually taught to bear the presence of a nazgul, maybe even enjoy it.

Just like my ideas, this is ENTIRELY speculation (the enjoyment part), based upon your extensive knowledge of Tolkien's writings.

I believe, the horses were gradually taught to resist the more and more intense doses of fear spell, projected by the nazgul, and finally the full amount of it. That’s how the Witch-King’s horse remained calm, when all around the battlefield man and beasts alike ran blindly away.

I just disagree with your opinion - it's that simple. We both know and love Tolkien, and have our opinions about what is more realistic when he doesn't give specifics.

But how would a nazgul "chase a single horse into a dead end"? On foot? As you say yourself, nazgul do have limitations. One of them is not being able to run as fast as a horse. So the horse should be stopped somehow.

You don't have to run as fast as a horse to know how to stop them (I know this from first-hand experience). You just have to know horses. I think it is very likely that some of the herds were in valleys that had places where a v. intelligent and desperate person could trap them.

That is my take on the matter. I believe it is realistic and follows the canon.

And I believe mine is realistic and follows canon, too. I also believe yours is a possibility. I was just a bit upset because you seemed to dismiss my opinion out-of-hand.

I just had to explain it at length, because some of you may think that I believe that all the animals instantly come to love nazgul, or something, like in the tale of Snow-White.
Not at all.

Got it
Disagree with it (your opinions about Nazgul/horse relations)

Let's keep playing! You're a great writer with an extensive knowledge of Tolkien.

[Earniel]

Ye gods, THREE discussion threads for a game that hasn't even exeded the 500 posts. You doubled the discussion thread in one night! Spammers!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Speaking of men of Gondolin, I've never quite forgiven JRRT for making Tuor's weapon of choice an axe Just seems so ... dwarven to me - makes me think of the dwarves in "The Hobbit".

That doesn't bother me much.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

... more to the point though ...where is Queen Earniel???

i feel you are all REMISS ( ) in not not noticing her absence .... i sincerely hope it is not anything you all know about that i don't? ...

I sincerely hope it has nothing to do with the friendly ( i hope) eagles discussion thing? ... that was never meant in any negative way at all!

Earniel ... where are are you? We (well, i at do any way) miss you ....

Queen?! I think someone is seriously getting ahead of himself.

There just hasn't been much to post for her, so I simply wait. Besides, I've been trying to catch up with the LoTR chapter discussion again and I'm a little less than a whole book behind. So much of my moot-time goes in there.

About the horses: I agree with RÃ*an on this one. I just don't see any of the nazgul riding a horse that simply accepts them, much less NOT fears them. I think any horse would have to have its mind broken before it becomes a suitable horse for a nazgul to ride on. I know you identify with your nazgul-characters but remember you're evil. Eeeville. .

Beating if of course another matter, and far less productive to get a horse to obey. I doubt the nazgul would beat a horse since they still need the horse to be in prime condition. But the nazgul have a little more at their disposal than a horse whip.

I also agree with Valandil with the current level of nazgul powers. We talked in the first thread about neither camp getting too powerful, and I think it is wise to bring this discussion up again. You undead lot are very powerful at the moment. You give and take away black breath on a mere thought. You can mess with people's mind enormously and yet freely walk the streets without anyone noticing the leastest bit of trouble. You can get your throat cut and still walk. You can have a whole fight at Orrodel and even the watch doesn't come knocking to keep down the racket. (Although there might be a useful idea, BB )

You're so powerful that I frankly wonder why you bother with the stealth. At this point, you can merely whisk Valandil from his cosy bed, take his mind apart for news of the one Ring, dump the young king in a young lady's bed before the night is over and change both their memories so they think they ended up there together after a bit of too much wine. And the nazgul can go their merry way unnoticed, with the information they desired and leaving the young king to deal with the scandal.

Or at this point you can as easily enter the Palace in invisible mode, sift through Valandil's memories for what you want to know while he sleeps - it's not like he even can put up a fight if you can immobilize and mute your own undead brethren at a mere thought. And nobody would be the wiser. There is actually nothing stopping you from doing this.

I don't think the nazgul actions are obvious enough yet to bring the game to the climax before we at least had some lessons. I reckon, as Willow and RÃ*an said, that the nazgul will be more careful after the talking to with the Morgul Lord. But that still leaves the issue of powers to be addressed.

[Gordis]

I liked your post in the Main, Eärniel. Everyone points out to her that she is in love with the King...

Now your Discussion questions (and some of Val's).

First of all, I believe that everyone would be much happier if this thread was shorter, and the main thread longer. But if you believe we have to discuss powers of evil vs. good, let's do that.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

About the horses: I agree with RÃ*an on this one. I just don't see any of the nazgul riding a horse that simply accepts them, much less NOT fears them. I think any horse would have to have its mind broken before it becomes a suitable horse for a nazgul to ride on. I know you identify with your nazgul-characters but remember you're evil. Eeeville. .

That was exactly the question posed by Frodo to Gandalf in Rivendell:

" Then why do these black horses endure such riders? All other animals are terrified when they draw near, even the elf-horse of Glorfindel. The dogs howl and the geese scream at them.'
`Because these horses are born and bred to the service of the Dark Lord in Mordor. Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves; and there have been and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the Sun, and yet are under his sway. And their number is growing daily.'

Maybe for you "to be in the service of the Dark Lord" implies "having your mind broken". Not so for me. But I am EEEVILLE...

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Beating if of course another matter, and far less productive to get a horse to obey. I doubt the nazgul would beat a horse since they still need the horse to be in prime condition. But the nazgul have a little more at their disposal than a horse whip.

I never said that the nazgul didn't abuse their horses OUT OF KINDNESS. You are quite right about their reasons for not beating the animals. And sure they had other methods in their disposal, mind control primarily.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I also agree with Valandil with the current level of nazgul powers. We talked in the first thread about neither camp getting too powerful, and I think it is wise to bring this discussion up again. You undead lot are very powerful at the moment. You give and take away black breath on a mere thought. You can mess with people's mind enormously and yet freely walk the streets without anyone noticing the leastest bit of trouble. You can have a whole fight at Orrodel and even the watch doesn't come knocking to keep down the racket. (Although there might be a useful idea, BB )

- Well, the nazgul can give Black breath very easily, almost automatically. That is canon. I see a clear parallel between Eowyn and Melwen with her frying pan.
As for HEALING black breath, it is NOT canon that the nazgul can do that.
Do you wish it to be changed?

- Messing with people's minds. Canonically nazgul could mess with minds to some extent. To what? Let us discuss it. Please, note, that not a single nazgul in this RPG was able to read thoughts of any of your elven or royal characters. Your shields worked.

- About Melwen. Let CS reply to your question, but I don't think that love and forgetfulness induced in the maid' s mind by Khamul could work permanently. The maid will have to be dealt with.

- "Walk the streets without anyone noticing the least bit of trouble" We have agreed that the nazgul could turn fully visible and appear normal. It was basics of this RPG, though not a canon thing. And Earniel, Mahtaliel and Orethurion felt unease in their presence didn't they?

- Now animal's reaction. Sorry, why would mere animals be more sensitive to the hidden nazgul presence than Elves? Really, why?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

"You're so powerful that I frankly wonder why you bother with the stealth. At this point, you can merely whisk Valandil from his cosy bed, take his mind apart for news of the one Ring, dump the young king in a young lady's bed before the night is over and change both their memories so they think they ended up there together after a bit of too much wine. And the nazgul can go their merry way unnoticed, with the information they desired and leaving the young king to deal with the scandal. "

Great Idea! ...Joking.

Please, note, the nazgul want THE RING, not the mere information on it. Now the Morgul Lord knows that Val has no ring (judging by Val's reactions when the talk was on the subject + trusting his own ring-detector feelings). So the nazgul still have plenty to do in Tharbad. They want to find the way to get the Ring.
And the nazgul cannot go to Rivendell. Isn't it a limitation?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

" Or at this point you can as easily enter the Palace in invisible mode, sift through Valandil's memories for what you want to know while he sleeps - it's not like he even can put up a fight if you can immobilize and mute your own undead brethren at a mere thought. And nobody would be the wiser. There is actually nothing stopping you from doing this."

Taking apart someone's mind is not easy, especially one's of Royal blood and trained to shield it, like Val was. Ilmenzor's mind was taken apart like that, but this required MONTHS of torture and direct confrontation of wills and the use of the full power of the Morgul Lord's ring. And that didn't pass unnoticed, it left Ilmenzor a broken man.
The maid was stunned by Black breath and offered no resistence; neither was her mind shielded.

As "for our undead brethren", they were immobilized by Khamul, using the more powerful Ring. The rings connect nazgul to one another, leaving their minds more open and more susceptible to each other, than to the outsiders. And no minds were broken in the process, no secret thoughts revealed.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't think the nazgul actions are obvious enough yet to bring the game to the climax before we at least had some lessons. I reckon, as Willow and RÃ*an said, that the nazgul will be more careful after the talking to with the Morgul Lord. But that still leaves the issue of powers to be addressed.

Yes, I agree.
The nazgul are not without limitations. They fear open fire. Most of them fear water. Some have difficulty even to remain civil to elves. And all are vulnerable to their own kind, as they use the same spells and weapons and are bounded by similar rings. And they are not united. Everyone wants the ring for himself.

As for animals, I agree. The Snow-White aspect of nazgul is strange and inappropriate canon-wise.
But do you REALLY want to ask Lotesse to part with her horse and owl? To take away her beautiful posts? Not to have a horse race with Ray, that I am really looking forward to? Do you REALLY WANT IT ?

The balance of forces.
Yes the nazgul are powerful and well consealed. They seem fair, but feel foul. Yet, they are not all-powerful.

Note, the nazgul make mistakes. That will allow the side of good to act upon them, or simply to start asking questions. I made the Morgul Lord open the front door of Orrodel, though I knew, Mahtaliel was watching. But I figured out that the Morgul Lord himself had no way to know it. Lilly almost screamed at the game. Nobody understood what it really was, but later, if suspicions grow, it might be remembered, right? The fight itself was rather noisy. I don't know why Mahtaliel didn't hear how Lilly wailed. Perhaps she came too late? Why the watch heard nothing, while they fought in Orrodel, is a question to BB and Shah.

Val has not yet discovered the theft of his jewels. Why? Also, he hasn't started to analyze his strange experiences at the Reception. Is it normal for him to react to women it this way?
And the good side has even got a talking sword!

So I don't really see why you believe that the fight of Good and Evil is unequal.

I believe, I answered all Earniel's questions and some of Val's.

As for Val's other points, I would like him to be more specific. I am ready to answer.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

You're right in thinking that Mahtaliel came up to the wall after Lilly's wail. But she did hear Buz's roar later on, so don't think she's gone mysteriously deaf.

Personally I'm willing to let Viv's relations to her horse and to Lomi slide since they were established long before we thought to question this and because Viv is the youngest of the Nazgul and seems closer to her humaness than the others.

But now that we've had such a discussion I think animal reactions should be more on the disturbed side of things.

The Nazgul are going to have to be much more careful once classes start, they'll be in close quarters with humans and elves for most of the day so they will be expected to try harder to maintain their disguises.

[Lotesse]

I'm only on for another few minutes, so I don't have the time to outline each & every point Valandil makes that upsets me so, therefore I'll just come out & say it - Val, what is WRONG with you that you say the RPG is or "should be winding down?!" That really upset me, to read that. It sounded like you would actually encourage or prefer that our story go dead - WHY?????

Gordis - thank you so much for your level-headed, calm, well-Tolkien educated, even responses & explanations that you put here. I am always SO thankful that you're in this RPG, for REAL. Thanx 4 sticking up for my animals, too; I definitely appreciate that.

Earniel - awesome new post!! I love snappy dialogue so much, and it was easy to be there at that breakfast and picture the two women talking - great stuff!

Shah - excellent warm-up 2 the Big Race! I have an idea: How about when Viv & Laslech show up to the race, the other horses might be a bit skittish around Viv. NOT terrified, but perhaps a little distracted or nervous, antsy. Because of Viv being a Nazgul. But Laslech isn't nervous since the mare CHOSE to take Viv as her Rider. Anyway. Maybe that'll help appease the animal naysayers.

I have so freakin' much in my head to say here. I wish I had a computer & the time and mental dexterity to outline it all to any of you naysayers and boo-ers who don't seem to want our story to develop. Again, thank you very much, Gordis! Everybody keeps using my sarcastic Snow White thing now, when I said Viv WAS NOT going to turn into a Snow White. She hasn't even hung around with any animals except her owl Lomi and Laslech, and Volcirom bore her that one time but Ray was there, so Volcirom didn't get scared or nervous. Bah. If only I were more eloquent; I hate not being able to articulate when I need to.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now animal's reaction. Sorry, why would mere animals be more sensitive to the hidden nazgul presence than Elves? Really, why?

Why? Because it's total, absolute canon:

from LOTR, Frodo speaking, my emphasis
"All other animals are terrified when they draw near, even the elf-horse of Glorfindel. The dogs howl and the geese scream at them."

As I said, I'm more than willing to grant some AU and some gray points, which means that I am willing to grant Viv's horse and owl, among other things, but I do NOT think the general animal reaction, which is scattered consistently all through LOTR, should be entirely dropped, so I will take Lotesse's advice and start writing it in my posts

I think what we're all trying to get here with these negotiations is a good rpg I hope it lasts for quite awhile!

[Butterbeer]

is Valandil having a "cup half empty day" rather than a "cup half full" day? ... just wondering .. i have those sometimes...

regarding nazgul and animals i was rather under the impression we had this debate some time back and agreed to let it stand, else the rpg would be unplayable: we agreed that the difference allowed here in this Rpg was that WITH the rings and free for the momment from Sauron they could appear to others as normal people ...

...else what have ben doing the last 2/3 months ... mass hallucinations? ... group delusions?

this was kinda covered at the start ... if animals were too noticeably upset by the nazgul ... there would be no point in attempting to have an rpg such as this set as it is in Tharbad ... even Constable BB may get a tad curious if everytime say, the languages professor, walks down the street, wild gesse shriek away, cat's hair stands up on ends ... causing fur-ball storms and it starts raining frogs and ..er cats and dogs ... ok bit too far there but you get the point

if even Constable BB of the "watch" notices it is uncanny how the loveable docile watch hound 'sleepydraws' ... who was once rumoured to have opened an eye-lid twice in the same afternoon nap .... suddenly whimpers and hides or growls menacingly ... EVERYTIME one of these certain men and women are near: we would have a problem ... would we not?

I can see some value in wanting to have the naz spend some small effort or thought this way ... but then it just becomes a drag and kind of pointless ...

sine we have begun this way, hundreds of posts in, i see absolutely any point in now trying to argue it's inclusion .... right or wrong i think we are past that stage ...

for my part i think we have some great writers here, everyone is contributing in different ways with characters that are getting deper and deeper ... and there are some incredible posts, not least from valandil : though we knew he could write anyway : but Val i too am at a loss why you think it draws to an end when it is just starting ...we have not even had oe class yet ... not that i see the curricular part as a main thing plot wise, merely a conduit for players to interact as part of the wider City ...

now i am in some agreement ref the use and over-use of nazgul powers .. i actually liked the fight scene and wondered where it would ultimately go ... the nazgul in-fighting i think is in-character and entertaining .... but perhaps the Morgul lord should be stronger ion his control regarding actions that relate to secrecy?

The nazgul need not rush ... as someone said they have plenty of time ... and as almost all the nine are now here, they inadvertantly play a little bit of cat and mouse between themselves too: they's all like the ring, even Tol might be tempted ... so, if the Captain has not yet revealed his hand as to his plans for finding either the ring or information on it .... this is not a problem, he can bide his time ... they are free from slavery for the first time in some time: they can enjoy a little bit of "life" almost, and the chancellor can spend his time well: learn about marrow growing etc ...everyone needs a hobby y'know!

from your description, i think, Val, you said we are here in this rpg to find things ..about ourselves, love, life and other vaguely para-phrased thingies ... ... it's the way i research em'

so, maybe we do need to strengthen the plot somewhat .. though not make it too straight-jacketed ... and we do need to ensure that the nazgul do not become too powerful ... but as of yet it is not a battle ... and you have the whole kingdom of Arnor to call on and the City of Tharbad,

and ....

and this is as gor - gor you really made me laugh with this - as gor says, as if it evens everything out:

and ...

you have a "talking sword"!!!

well, there we go! it's about even.

wow, i wish i had a talking sword! well, of course i do ... but that's a whole other matter

and vals' sword must be (in rpg land) almost to the stage of singing, ala the sound of music be now!

ahem, i digress, ...

btw lotesse ... sorry couldn't resist ... but when you coined snow-white that is just such a funny, and powerful spot-on concept .... loved it .. you cannot blame people for wanting to use it!

but i wouldn't worry: like you say, you only have lomi and laslech...

i, for one really like this rpg and the vibrancy of it ... so whilst i agree that both val and Rian have valid points (and earniel too) ... i think it too late and would be too odd now to change the situation with animals ... if elves and kings of the line of elros and numenor cannot sense much beyond a general unease sometimes i think we must bite the bullet and accept animals will not either ...and put that one to bed ...

but i do agree that nazgul powers need to be toned down somewhat and that we could do with a slightly stronger plot lines being developed ....

though i think that will happen naturally ... or creationistically

now i know this is an AU ..and we do of course all appreciate this, but as me and earniel recently discussed i think it fair to point out so we are all clear, this is and never has been an excuse for anything goes .... where we can, we try to be within our au world that we are creating, as canon or sensible to our setting and time as we can ... it is in details such as these that make the world come to life as much as anything else ... and both I and Earniel i think are in complete agreement on this ... provided we all are aware of and strive to keep the right balance all should be well ..

sometimes we all just need to talk to each other and be clear: and it is no bad thing for any rpg-er here to voice any concerns on the rpg direction ... but let us try to view this as a "cup half full" positive thing and not go the other way everyone!

best BB