Gays, lesbians, bisexuals - Page 7

The Gaffer · 03-01-2005, 05:25 AM

Three cheers for dressing however the hell you like, and for not being defined by other people's categories. I myself am at this moment .. no let's no go there.

LCoU, were you also a bit pissed off that they edited out the worst swearies when Little Britain migrated to BBC1 from BBC3? In the scene at the fete, with the gay vicar, and the old lady saying "what that boy needs is a nice big...", she so obviously really enjoyed saying the (not especially rude) words that it felt like sacrilege that they toned it down. Interesting how you can blow people up but you can't describe gay sex explicitly on the BBC.

Quote:

Yes, ANYONE can get AIDS and use meth, but apparently in the gay community the numbers are much higher, so much so that people are targeting the gay community to try to help them (the article notes that "Authorities in San Francisco launched a media campaign against "crystal mess", even plastering the ads on coasters at gay bars"). Is that prejudice? I don't think so. I think it's being practical.

I agree, it's both practical and necessary. However, I also agree with what others were saying about a "gay lifestyle". I guess we have to get a balance between being realistic about which groups are exposed to risk and understanding the reasons why these risks exist. That would be why non-judgmental interventions (e.g. free condoms, needle exchanges for IV drug users) work better IMO than interventions that contain an element of condemning the behaviour.

* Tosses ketchup back with thanks, and asks for some VINEGAR! *

The Gaffer · 03-01-2005, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

more likely to engage in risky activities

Indeed. I would reckon that just coming out in itself is a very risky activity, what with the likelihood of being ostracised and/or beaten up. And so for some gay people, risk is part of the fun.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-01-2005, 07:55 AM

little britain is the funniest programme around, matt lucas is a gay icon, and
the bbc had no right to tone it down in favour of their elderly viewers

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-01-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaffer

Indeed. I would reckon that just coming out in itself is a very risky activity, what with the likelihood of being ostracised and/or beaten up.

you're right there, TG, i have known many that have been quite severely beaten by bigoted jerks, which is why i didn't come out until after i left school, teenage chavs are the worst

***Rían*** · 03-01-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I have heard of this issue (the use of meth and unsafe sex) but I hesitate to get in to that in this thread. In fact, I avoid it completely for fear there might be harmful and false extrapolations about homosexuality being a harmful lifestile.

ad infinitum.

I used "lifestyle" because I was anwering your post, Nurvi (altho I did correct the spelling!

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvi

The thing is, there is no such thing as a "gay lifestyle". Since when does the gender of your partner define your lifestyle? That's like saying there's a "straight lifestyle" - of course there isn't. Do all straight people act the same? Dress the same? Engage in similar hobbies and activities? Have similar values? The answer is many resounding NOs.
Thinking that there is such thing as "a gay lifestyle" (A, as in ONE) leads to other dangerous thinking. It's easy to pigeonhole gays into all kinds of horrible stereotypes if they are "all the same".

If you notice, in my post BEFORE your post, I used "gay community" and NOT "gay lifestyle". I think "gay community" is entirely appropriate in this context. "Community" implies a common feature (such as Hispanic community, folk dance community) that is being talked about, but does NOT imply, IMO, that all members are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvi

You mentioned in another thread that it sucks when people make a lot of assumptions about you as soon as they find our you're Christian (giant paraphrase there). Well, it does suck, and the same thing happens to many gay people.
This is why the notion of a gay lifestyle is not only wrong, but dangerous.

The only thing I assume about gays is that they have a preference for a partner of the same sex.

*tosses Gaffer some vinegar and salt*

**Nurvingiel** · 03-01-2005, 01:01 PM

Sorry Ri.

Hm... I used 'gay lifestyle' in response to posts before mine. Oh well. There isn't one, we both agree, we can move on.

I think 'gay community' is still misleading though. It implies that gay people all live in the same neighbourhood or something. But no biggie.

The Gaffer · 03-01-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

you're right there, TG, i have known many that have been quite severely beaten by bigoted jerks, which is why i didn't come out until after i left school, teenage chavs are the worst

That blows. I suppose they might have been beaten up just for being in possession of a "different" kind of appearance in the vicinity of a bunch of chav twats. "Chav" is an interesting term. It seems to mean the same as "ned" did back where I come fae.

EDIT: just checking out a Ned humour site, came across this and thought you might appreciate it.

* scoffs chips with salt and vinegar, washed doon wi a boatil ay buckie *

* dies of a coronary *

inked · 03-01-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Sorry Ri.

Hm... I used 'gay lifestyle' in response to posts before mine. Oh well. There isn't one, we both agree, we can move on.

I think 'gay community' is still misleading though. It implies that gay people all live in the same neighbourhood or something. But no biggie.

Gee, Nurv, this UK site thinks lifestyle and community both work. Your position is untenable. GLBT is a series of actions in a repeated fashion leading to a distinctive pattern of behaviour and results. It is a lifestyle and there is a community...just like heterosexuals.

http://uk.gay.com/

I'm sure that if I surf the web I can produce more exempla, but I leave you to do that.

Just for funsies, how many sites would it take to produce a statistically reliable sample and results you would accept?

My Google search under gay and lifestyle yielded 5, 240, 000 hits.

Google on gay and community yielded 11,000,000 hits

and gay and community and lifestyle yielded 1, 090, 000 hits!

Your viewpoint seems in a minority, statistically speaking to self identifiers on the web search engines and usage.

But, it's only data, I know.

**Nurvingiel** · 03-01-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Gee, Nurv, this UK site thinks lifestyle and community both work. Your position is untenable. GLBT is a series of actions in a repeated fashion leading to a distinctive pattern of behaviour and results. It is a lifestyle and there is a community...just like heterosexuals.

http://uk.gay.com/

I'm sure that if I surf the web I can produce more exempla, but I leave you to do that.

For lifestyle, did you mean the tab fourth from the right at the top of the main page (between "Jobs" and "Money")? It's about general lifestyle things. Yes, the different articles are target at gay people, but I don't think they were using it in the same way there.
My only problem with "gay lifestyle" is that it suggests everyone behaves the same. There are enough stereotypes about gays as it is without adding more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Just for funsies, how many sites would it take to produce a statistically reliable sample and results you would accept?

My Google search under gay and lifestyle yielded 5, 240, 000 hits.

Google on gay and community yielded 11,000,000 hits

and gay and community and lifestyle yielded 1, 090, 000 hits!

Googling "teh" returned 3,560,000 hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Your viewpoint seems in a minority, statistically speaking to self identifiers on the web search engines and usage.

But, it's only data, I know.

There are a lot of flaws in this method of data collection, which is a bigger worry than statistical significance.

Besides, being in the minority does not mean that you're wrong.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-01-2005, 07:27 PM

goggle for ogglyboogly, and yo get 42 results

The Wizard from Milan · 03-01-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

GLBT is a series of actions in a repeated fashion leading to a distinctive pattern of behaviour and results. It is a lifestyle and there is a community...just like heterosexuals.

It is quite funny how you seem to be close to Judith Butler. I wonder if you would agree with her that also gender is performative

In this very thread though, the two of us discussed how LGBT is more than a series of actions, it is also an orientation. I don't remember any (relevant) counterarguments my post #4298.

**Nurvingiel** · 03-01-2005, 08:13 PM

Haha, that's awesome Chrys.

I did think you were at least half kidding with the Google data collection thing... um... right Inked?

EDIT: Cross-posted with WfM. I agree - if I kissed a girl, would that make me gay? If I kissed a lot of girls, or one girl many times, would I be gay then?

Embladyne · 03-01-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

EDIT: Cross-posted with WfM. I agree - if I kissed a girl, would that make me gay? If I kissed a lot of girls, or one girl many times, would I be gay then?

Heh heh....if I kissed guys, would it make me straight?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-01-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embladyne

Heh heh....if I kissed guys, would it make me straight?

if i kissed girls, would it make me straight?
oh wait

i have kissed girls! i must be straight!!

Insidious Rex · 03-01-2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Just for funsies, how many sites would it take to produce a statistically reliable sample and results you would accept?

My Google search under gay and lifestyle yielded 5, 240, 000 hits.

Google on gay and community yielded 11,000,000 hits

and gay and community and lifestyle yielded 1, 090, 000 hits!

Your viewpoint seems in a minority, statistically speaking to self identifiers on the web search engines and usage.

But, it's only data, I know.

if your most reliable data is plugging random words into internet search engines then Id say you do the best job of all of us of proving how ridiculous your argument is. Thanks. Gee I wonder how many millions of hits I can get by plugging the words "christian" and "hate" into a search engine... And what that actually tells us...

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-01-2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

if your most reliable data is plugging random words into internet search engines then Id say you do the best job of all of us of proving how ridiculous your argument is. Thanks. Gee I wonder how many millions of hits I can get by plugging the words "christian" and "hate" into a search engine... And what that actually tells us...

isn't it obvious, IR, it tells you exactly what you want it to, and so i conclude that pointless data with no basis in fact is tantamount to hypocrisy

The Gaffer · 03-02-2005, 04:43 AM

Well I got 5m+ hits for gay cooking and 4m for gay football. Hmm. Nicely illustrates the perils of retrospective research methinks...

**Nurvingiel** · 03-02-2005, 09:37 AM

IRex I hope you don't do that search.

There have been enough non-inflammatory examples to debunk the argument anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

if i kissed girls, would it make me straight?
oh wait

i have kissed girls! i must be straight!!

Lol, that was my point Chrys and Em!

inked · 03-02-2005, 10:06 AM

Well, well, well, I see the sense of humor has been abandoned after all!

inked · 03-02-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

It is quite funny how you seem to be close to Judith Butler. I wonder if you would agree with her that also gender is performative

In this very thread though, the two of us discussed how LGBT is more than a series of actions, it is also an orientation. I don't remember any (relevant) counterarguments my post #4298.

See my 4300#.

03-02-2005, 10:06 AM	#139
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Well, well, well, I see the sense of humor has been abandoned after all! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

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