feanor a villian

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I'm him not his nation. Do you consider Milosovietch (sp?) to a god guy?

No. Ask a silly question.

My only point being here is that Feanor was not a GOOD guy. That's all I've been trying to say.

Lets be picky shall we?

You've been saying that he is evil. A villain. In no previous argument have you been saying that he is merely, "not a good guy". This statement I DO agree with. He wasn't a good guy. BUT he's not a completely evil guy either. Which is what you HAVE been saying.

[afro-elf]

I don't think Feanor expected them to attempt the crossing to Middle Earth. If you'll read the book again, it's quite clear that it was his hope that Fingolfin and his host return to Valinor in shame, I'm sure you'll agree that Feanor would get a kick out of that

I reread the passage and it still does not allievate from the task. It was done out of malice.

The words used by Tolkien at the kinslaying "wickedly killed" and of the burning of the ships " betrayal"

He's murderous, trecherous, mego-manic. I don't find him to me a noble character.

The attributes that I would use to descibe a good person seem to be QUITE lacking in him.

[afro-elf]

Sorry that should have been:


I meant him not his nation do you consider SM a GOOD guy

I said VILLIAN. I don't THINK i EVER said EVIL.


Denethor is a villian, 1/2 the sons of Feanor are villians, the dunlandings were villians, the haradrim were villians but are they evil no.


IF you can SHOW were I said evil i will recant

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I think we need a definition of 'villain' that we all agree to. What exactly do you mean by 'villain,' A-E? Because I'm thinking we have different definitions.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
IF you can SHOW were I said evil i will recant

Nope. Too lazy.

And you probably didn't. Maybe it was someone else...

[afro-elf]

In the first dictionary I grabbed it says: a person who is guilty of or capable of great wickedness

That to me describes Feanor.

[BeardofPants]

Quoted by afro-elf
How would it bring more evil? To use a christian/moslem example. If I swear an oath before God in to pursue some mad quest that will doom a nation and then I repent. How does that bring about more evil?

Okay. You implied evil in this statement.

You also called him a @#$@##%#@ or something or other...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I would say a villain is a person guilty or capable of great wickedness, who comitted said wickedness with malicious intent. Most of what Feanor did was not with malicious intent. I'd say the one thing that would really count is the burning of the ships at Losgar, and I think I he did that thinking Fingolfin would return to Valinor. I don't think he wanted to cause the deaths of so many of his kinsmen.

[afro-elf]

Okay. You implied evil in this statement.

an evil action

I don't think he wanted to cause the deaths of so many of his kinsmen.

Many had died even before he sailed away. There is no reason to think that more would not.

You also called him a @#$@##%#@ or something or other...

I called you a christian too

* quickly points to a chair and clandestinely slips away*

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Many had died even before he sailed away. There is no reason to think that more would not.

He never wanted all those people to die, or at least I believe he did not. And he was not thinking rationally, not thinking about the many more deaths he would cause. The case of a distracted moment--er, many moments, does not make someone a villain.

[BeardofPants]

[

an evil action

Which implies an evil subject...

I called you a christian too

You geriatric nubian!

* quickly points to a chair and clandestinely slips away*

Would you STOP that?!

*Points out Thai girl and runs away*

[afro-elf]

He never wanted all those people to die, or at least I believe he did not. And he was not thinking rationally, not thinking about the many more deaths he would cause. The case of a distracted moment--er, many moments, does not make someone a villain

He intentionally burned the ships as an act of betrayal. Tolkien used that word not me. He was well aware of what he was doing. He was not in a fit of rage. It was a cold hearted decision.

Which implies an evil subject

Not. Maglor and Maedhos committed evil acts but I think they are the most noble of the sons of Feanor for they did many good things. Feanor and his others sons that start with the letter C are ignoble for the most part.


Turin, Daeron, Thingol, also did some fairly foul things but I would not say they are evil subjects.

Eol was also tainted .

I;ll trap us both a thai girl in a chair with marmite ( what the hell is that anyway)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Not. Maglor and Maedhos committed evil acts but I think they are the most noble of the sons of Feanor for they did many good things. Feanor and his others sons that start with the letter C are ignoble for the most part.

Okay. I concede your point, Mr logical typo inflictor.

Upon reflection, it was the evil Blackheart that mentioned the "e" word...

... marmite ( what the hell is that anyway)

It's a yeast spread. No. Really. It is.

[afro-elf]

It's a yeast spread. No. Really. It is.

[Blackheart]

Because he is evil. Lets not beat around the bush here. He broke a ban on weapons, he threatened his brother with a sword, he took an oath which he knew would sunder his allegience, he knew that the task would be dangerous so he determined to lead away his nation, both to fulfil his own selfish ends AND diminish the glory of Aman, He murdered his kinsmen (or at least incited it) He betrayed and abandoned his kinsman to suffer for decades in a hostile environment, causing many of their deaths, and in the very end he was unrepentant about the magnitude of his own stupidity, and cursed his own sons to follow the path to destruction.

Most of the horrible things he did were directed at his OWN KIN. Now just what the hell do you think an individual like that would do to you, if you had something he wanted? Or if you even irritated him.

And you don't think he's evil? Well hell! In that case, invite me over for lunch!

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Silmarillion does not say that it was Feanor's hope that Fingolfin and his people would return to Aman in shame. It just states the two obvious choices that Fingolfin and his people had after the burning of the ships and that was to return to Aman in shame, or to attempt the crossing if the Ice, and crossing the Ice was the choice that Fingolfin made, not Feanor. The Sil says something like: (Now Fingolfin wished more than ever to come by some way to Middle-earth and meet Feanoragain.) Feanor was not a good guy, but I would like to point out that Fingolfin was not blameless in the fate of the Noldor, and was capable of being prideful as well.

[afro-elf]

The Silmarillion does not say that it was Feanor's hope that Fingolfin and his people would return to Aman in shame.

In the flight of the Noldor it says SOMETHING like:

feanor lauaghed as one fey" none and none, no ship will be sent back. let those who curse me curse me still. what I have left behind is naught but useless baggage and no loss. Let them whine their way back to the cages of the noldor"

it seems to me that he wanted them to turn back in shame.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Considering his attitude, I don't think he really cared what they did.

[afro-elf]

Sounds good to me.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I still say he wasn't evil. He did some pretty horrible things, but I don't think he planned out carefully how to cause a lot of trouble and death. He followed his feelings and his pride, and he got a bit...okay, very. . .out of control, one might say, and he had a few moments which might be considered pretty evil except that he didn't really want to cause death and destruction, he merely had his goals and was going to (in his mind) reach them. I'm not saying he was good, per se, but I don't think he was evil, either.

And I still don't think he thought Fingolfin would actually cross over to Middle Earth. He may not have really cared what they did, but I'm sure he didn't want so many of them to die...or would not have if he had stopped to think about it. Which he never did.