the definative balrog answer :)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by afro-elf
yes the ONE WING BALROG

it beats the 5 ass monkey from South park

First off, how do you know it will beat the 5 ass monkey from Southpark. Perhaps if we can set up a grudge match going between them and sell some tickets we could find out for sure one way or another. Ooooh.. I want the rights to consessions. Lembas anyone?

[Twista]

I think this the Balrogs Wings topic. thought id bring it up !

[Bombadillo]

Good. I feel like mindlessly arguing. I encourage others to mindlessly flame me.

Look what I came across, all by myself:

Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, a man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

This describes the whole balrog, and it states that the entire body was only like a cloud, and not appearing to be anything tangible. It and even its sword was only smoke, or maybe fear, but nothing concrete. So why should its wings be solid and real?
Notice also, how in this introductory description, there is no mention of wings at all. So I will take it a step further: the Balrog never had wings of any sort, or Tolkien certainly would have told us here.


But still another detail:

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised its whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Firse, weilder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

Notice how little was written between bold sentence and bold sentence. After only one paragraph, the reader should remember clearly the words in the first. The second time Tolkien mentions wings, it is a metaphor. It is a direct reference back to the simile two pragraphs before, and its meaning is the same as that simile: its shadow, cast in two directions by the fire directly below and behind it, looked frighteningly like wings. But that is only its shadow.
Similarly, if I were to play with my hand in front of a light and say "Look at the monkey on the wall," it does not mean that my hand is a monkey. (And I assure you it is not.) But the shadow looks like a monkey's sillouette. And the Balrog's shadow looks like wings, but solid wings, or even smokey ones, do not excist.

[BeardofPants]

*smacks Bomb with an extremely smelly fish*

And I'm sure that particular detail probably exists countless times, in countless threads, all across the universe.

*runs off with his pants, AND the balrogs* heh heh heh...

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
Similarly, if I were to play with my hand in front of a light and say "Look at the monkey on the wall," it does not mean that my hand is a monkey. (And I assure you it is not.) But the shadow looks like a monkey's sillouette. And the Balrog's shadow looks like wings, but solid wings, or even smokey ones, do not excist.

your hand may not be a monkey, but the shadow is... you said so yourself!

what' wrong with shadowy wings? are they any less real?

you said...

This describes the whole balrog, and it states that the entire body was only like a cloud, and not appearing to be anything tangible. It and even its sword was only smoke, or maybe fear, but nothing concrete. So why should its wings be solid and real?

so by your shadow-logic, one would have to assume that the balrog itself did not exist... if only gandalf knew!

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
*smacks Bomb with an extremely smelly fish*

And I'm sure that particular detail probably exists countless times, in countless threads, all across the universe.

*runs off with his pants, AND the balrogs* heh heh heh...

AND the balrogs!? Now I stink and am cold with no firey balrog to warm me! *chases after BoP, but can't see without the balrog flame to light things up.*

Originally posted by brownjenkins
your hand may not be a monkey, but the shadow is... you said so yourself!

what' wrong with shadowy wings? are they any less real?
---- ---- ---- ----
so by your shadow-logic, one would have to assume that the balrog itself did not exist... if only gandalf knew!

It didn't excist, in a way. It was not part of the physical realm. (Meybe it's whip was. Yes, Gandalf only knew for sure.)

[Bombadillo]

The word "shadow" is being interpereted different ways here. I mean, and I think Tolkien meant, the actual normal old shadows that were cast on the walls by the balrog's light. I think you are imagining some floating darkness, like smoke. I don't think that would be possible because of the way it seemingly ignited itself while jumping over the fire (in the first quote there). The wings, if they existed, would have been on fire also. Unless they actually were smoke, but they were present before the flames, and so that would not be possible as smoke cannot excist without fire.

[brownjenkins]

and what cast those wing-like shadows?

[cassiopeia]

*yawn* Balrogs don't have wings. Plus, don't you want to pick on Peter Jackson for something else he got wrong?

Sorry, I know this is the book thread, but I couldn't help myself.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
*yawn* Balrogs don't have wings. Plus, don't you want to pick on Peter Jackson for something else he got wrong?

Sorry, I know this is the book thread, but I couldn't help myself.

i agree, but bomb said he wanted some mindless arguing

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
*yawn* Balrogs don't have wings. Plus, don't you want to pick on Peter Jackson for something else he got wrong?

Sorry, I know this is the book thread, but I couldn't help myself.

I don't share the common detest for PJ, but I agree he got this one wrong. I read a note from JRRT somewhere (probably letters) where he said the Balrog was larger than a man, but not enormously so.

[Valarauko5]

I hardly dare to write here as a newbie fearing the wrath of some of you, but I might just try and put this to rest, being a "balrog" myself. I've looked at a lot of sites, and I've read the areas in the Sil and the Fellowship. I agree with some people that, from a purely reading/enjoyment standpoint, it only really matters what you want them to look like. But in essence, the Sil says that the Maia also had the power to change form at will. Since a Valarauco is a Maia, it seems that as it says in the Fellowship "It drew itself up to a great height....it's wings were spread from wall to wall" that they could stay man size if need be, but being Maia, could also become larger and more terrible. And thus could also have wings if necessary. In answer to the common problem of "well how did it fall from the bridge then if it could fly" well, when I get bored of my flamy shape, it takes a good chunk of power and some time. The things sword, which it would seem is created by it's power of flame, was thrown up in shards and it seems Gandalf prevented it from somehow getting another, otherwise it would just have reformed it. Thus the Valarauco had neither time nor power to spare. I don't really know why people WOULDN'T want a Balrog to have wings. Doesn't it look cooler that way? Please tell me what you think.

[DARKastheRAIN]

Why is it that no one ever thought to ask Tolkien if Balrogs had wings when he was still alive?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

But in essence, the Sil says that the Maia also had the power to change form at will. Since a Valarauco is a Maia, it seems that as it says in the Fellowship "It drew itself up to a great height....it's wings were spread from wall to wall" that they could stay man size if need be, but being Maia, could also become larger and more terrible. And thus could also have wings if necessary.

The Encyclopedia of Arda provides a rather comprehensive article on the Balrogs' shapeshifting abilities and acknowledges that there is no definite answer.

Amongst other things, one can read:
" To complicate matters, it isn't clear that Tolkien considered Balrogs to be Maiar at the time he wrote this passage. In his original conception, he saw Balrogs as creatures created by Morgoth, and not Maiar at all. The first references to their later origin as Maiar appear in texts from the 1950's, dated ten years or more after the Balrog descriptions in The Lord of the Rings were written. It's impossible to know for sure whether the Balrog of Khazad-dûm, as Tolkien imagined it at the time, was a Maia or not. Indeed, the fact that it is twice referred to as a 'Balrog of Morgoth' hints that Tolkien imagined it as Morgoth's creation, rather than his ally. "

[Attalus]

I am on record as saying that Balrogs could look like anything they darned well pleased. What are Balrogs made of, anyhow? Certainly not bone and sinew. Probably some divine (or demonic) ichor that made shape-changing a breeze.

[Coffeehouse]

Yeah, perhaps they can. I happened to like the movie-version. Looked ancient without coming of as too cartoonish

[Gordis]

I agree that the Balrog had not yet lost his/her shape-shifting ability.

The shape-shifting Maiar were not necessarily made of ichor - Sauron back in the First Age had this ability, yet he was of flesh and blood: Huan wounded him in a hound form and the bat-form he used to fly away still had blood dripping, IIRC.

[Valarauko5]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

The Encyclopedia of Arda provides a rather comprehensive article on the Balrogs' shapeshifting abilities and acknowledges that there is no definite answer.
"[/I]

Yes, but firstly the encyclopedia of Arda is far from comprehensive in and of itself. And secondly, just because it's referred to as Morgoth's doesn't mean that it was his creation. They were his servants, just as Sauron was his servant. Does that imply that Sauron was Morgoth's creation? Just for the record yes it's possible, and the encyclopedia is ok for some things, just not everything.

Besides. I'm a Balrog. I should know.

[Valarauko5]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

" To complicate matters, it isn't clear that Tolkien considered Balrogs to be Maiar at the time he wrote this passage.
"

This is a perfect example of how bad the encyclopedia can be. The Book specifically states that "it was man-sized......" and "It drew itself up to a great height" Doesn't that sound like it could change shape to anyone but me?

[Valarauko5]

Here's another great contradictory on Balrogs in the encyclopedia. Under Durin's Bane it has "In January III 3019, the Company of the Ring travelled through Moria on the Quest of Mount Doom. In Gandalf, the Balrog finally encountered a being of the same order and power as itself. As the two Maiar faced each other on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm,..." Which implies that the encyclopedia thinks they are both Maiar. Isn't that great?