Discussion Thread Number 4 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Ironically - Tharbad was the city of Arnor that survived the longest - up until a few years after Bilbo's birth! (22 years, IIRC) I guess it avoided attracting too much attention to itself... from a particular personage... (or maybe he has a soft spot in his heart - or whatever passes for a heart - after these little misadventures there "Tharbad... Hmmm... I was Chancellor of the University there... now THOSE were some Good Times!")

hehehe, I love it!

Originally Posted by Valandil

BTW... I'm not liking the sounds of those long-term plans that the ML has for me. But anyway, don't you think that if he tried to take on Gondor, Lindon and Imladris as soon as he gained the sceptre, that he would get Arnor CREAMED?

Exactly. That is what preserves your life NOW, Val. If the ML tries to supplant you illegally, there would be war with Gondor, Lindon and Imladris and a revolt in Arnor itself. No, you have lots of time, probably a whole peaceful life before you. During your reign, the ML will try to make Arnor immensely strong.

And he will supplant you unobtrusively. Say, the King dies without a heir. Then what? Perhaps the Law of Numenor would be reinstalled, and your wife will become a ruling Queen and her father a Regent. Will Gondor declare war immediately? Possibly not.

Or the trick with the child – like in my previous post. It gives even more time to prepare for the war. That plan will pass most smoothly. Gondor will have nothing to complain about. As for Lindon and Imladris, they will also need time to have a "good look" at the new king and figure it all out.

[Valandil]

Well... hopefully, we of the FOGAL will foil and thwart your EEEeee-vil plans!

If it's any consolation though, Valandil may inadvertently feed the ML some information that he CAN eventually use to ultimately destroy Arnor (We DO have to keep the results of this game within canon, don't we? Or at least the apparent results of the game. )

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

So it was Gawen who brought the keys. Interesting that he knows all about the University buildings! I hope it will not lead him to an untimely end...

You'll note that I didn't specify which department he favored or what exactly his personality is. For all I know he could be on the evil side. It's always good to have at least a character who functions as a giant question mark...

[Earniel]

On the matter of Nazgul (either female or male) having children, it is an interesting idea, but it seems somewhat unlikely IMHO. Not withstanding the nazgul all are quite dead, they don't have an entirely normal body anymore. Especially considering the wraiths in this game have been popping in and out of visibility, I gather their human forms are even more an illusion than a proper functioning, living body. Could have its benefits, though. Not having to worry with going to the restrooms and such.

One more thing, on the subject of RPG-Eärniel. While I've seen many speculations, I would like to say that I will be the one who ultimately decides on whether or not she takes a romantic interest in anyone. And on that I wish to point out that I haven't decided anything in advance, it will simply be determined by the way the game goes.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Earniel, you there? Could you, please, write the eviction post, how Khamul kicked you and Rian out of the Library - in a most polite way- and told you that you would need the Chancellors permission every time you wish to use it?
Time is between 6 and 6.30 PM- you were in the Library since 3

Yes, yes. Hasty folks .

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

About the library and the way the Chancellor is so strictly controlling access to it... isn't that just a little odd for a university library? I mean, I can see certain sections of it being strictly controlled but it makes no sense for students not to have access to the main parts for studying, paper writing etc.

The fact that it has been strictly controlled so far could be explained by the lack of a permanent librarian, but now Khamul has that post, shouldn't the main part of the library be open to students for a large part of the day, without people having to go and beg permission everytime they need to look something up for their homework?

It's a little detail that's been bugging me. Let me know what you all think.

[Rían]

(working my way backwards thru the posts...)

Maggie - yes, I agree about the library, and those innocent students need to keep asking natural questions about it. If a Chancellor doesn't allow access to a Uni library, perhaps he is unfit for his post ... now who is it that has the final say when appointing Chancellors?

Eärniel - re rpg-Eärniel's romance - absoLUTELY!!!!!! It is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY up to you what your character does. My character may or may not develop a further interest in yours, and of course you are always free to dictate what your character does Them's the rules! And it's no fun if we don't keep to that, IMO.

Val - I always thought that yes, we have to keep the ultimate results within canon. Ideas/opinions, other rpg-ers?

Lotesse - Please let me know what you decide about your post where you write for my character - please read my post #115 in this discussion thread for my one-sentence suggested change to make my character act how I think he should. I can understand if you really love how your post came out and don't want to change it, but if that's the case, then please remove my character (and I"ll delete my post) and substitute one of your own making, OK? And again, I'm more than happy to make ANY changes to Viv in my post that you would like I don't want Viv to act in a way that you think she wouldn't!

Goodbye, all! I'm off for the weekend! Have fun!

[Rían]

Eärniel - just read your post - great, great post! I love it! Really, really nice.

bye again, guys!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

About the library and the way the Chancellor is so strictly controlling access to it... isn't that just a little odd for a university library? I mean, I can see certain sections of it being strictly controlled but it makes no sense for students not to have access to the main parts for studying, paper writing etc.

The fact that it has been strictly controlled so far could be explained by the lack of a permanent librarian, but now Khamul has that post, shouldn't the main part of the library be open to students for a large part of the day, without people having to go and beg permission everytime they need to look something up for their homework?

It's a little detail that's been bugging me. Let me know what you all think.

To answer that question we must have an agreement: do we have PRINTED books or HANDWRITTEN books only. I know what is the answer for Tolkien's word - but for our AU RPG?

I remember, Val was sort of reading a newspaper....I regret it now.

For a Medieval library of rare and unique books it is NORMAL to be guarded and closely surveyed. The book are PRICELESS- would you allow some random students peruse them as they wish?

There would be a Scriptorium, (a sort of reading and writing room, where students and scribes are allowed to read and copy books), and the Main book Storage, where only the Librarian or his assistants are permitted to have access.
I believe we should follow along this way. OK??

Yes, the Scriptorium will be open in day time. It is on the Second floor of the Library, above Galadannun's apartment. The access to the 3 floor and higher, will be reserved for Galadannun and his assistant.
(Now the question, where to get that assistant?? Must invent one!- anyone wants an additional character? - I mean FOEAD people, naturally )

To get access into the Library ITSELF, one must ask permission from the Chancellor, like Oreturion did. But now most likely the Chancellor will send them to Scriptorium to order books from upstairs via Galadannun.

Yes, I believe the Library of Minas Aran will have somewhat stricter rules than an ordinary medieval library


Earniel Liked your post very much! Esp. about the cellars.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

To answer that question we must have an agreement: do we have PRINTED books or HANDWRITTEN books only. I know what is the answer for Tolkien's word - but for our AU RPG?

I think it isn't too far fetched to think that they might have both printed and handwritten books available.

We've already established that our AU world has universities.

Universities = Greater demand for numerous and accurate copies of textbooks

Middle Earth has no shortage of peoples who are good at inventing things, therefore it is reasonable to believe that given a demand for an invention enabling large numbers of accurate copies of useful/popular books, such an invention would have been made and used.

It is also reasonable to assume that Tolkien would probably not object to something enabling greater literacy rates in his world.

For a Medieval library of rare and unique books it is NORMAL to be guarded and closely surveyed. The book are PRICELESS- would you allow some random students peruse them as they wish?

Of course not. Those would be kept seperate, no question.

However, if we agree that it isn't too anachronistic to assume that printing presses or something similar had been invented then not every book in the library would be priceless, the library might also have multiple copies of texkbooks, popular instructional books, novels, etc. Khamul and his assistant are likely to be driven crazy if they have to closely supervise every student who has lost their personal copy of a required textbook, or who couldn't afford one, or who needs to quickly look something up or who merely wants to read.

Having the Scriptorium for those doing serious research, requiring older, rarer texts is an excellent idea.

Yes, I believe the Library of Minas Aran will have somewhat stricter rules than an ordinary medieval library.

As that is convinient for the ML's true character, yes. But restricting library usability wouldn't fit with the outer image you've established for ML, which, if memory serves correctly, is that of a distinguished scholar attempting to build a 'party school' into a respected university. Outwardly at least, he should be building up the Library's stock of books and encouraging students to be serious about their education and go there to study.

Perhaps choose the one area of the Library to be strictly controlled and keep students distracted with lots of harmless books in the other areas?

[The last sane person]

*leaps in* So, the certain valuable books will be guarded. Rest will be like a modern (sort of) Library....Its like the librarys we have back home. You need certain permission to go search out books in the guarded room. But how will they check out books? Old fashion ledger and writing down of codes in the books?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

I think it isn't too far fetched to think that they might have both printed and handwritten books available.

We've already established that our AU world has universities.

Universities = Greater demand for numerous and accurate copies of textbooks

Middle Earth has no shortage of peoples who are good at inventing things, therefore it is reasonable to believe that given a demand for an invention enabling large numbers of accurate copies of useful/popular books, such an invention would have been made and used.
It is also reasonable to assume that Tolkien would probably not object to something enabling greater literacy rates in his world.

As for me, I intensely dislike the idea of printed books in ME. All Tolkien's world is incompatible with modern mass media- printed books culture. Bilbo painstakingly rewriting and translating old books in Elvish, Red book of Westmarch, guarded and copied by scribes many times, chronicles lost forever in the Downfall - you name it.
Universities, as you all certainly know, appeared in Europe long before the first book was printed by Johann Gutenberg, in 1440. First medieval Universities date from late 11 and 12 centuries.

I know there was a mention of a newspaper and a reporter here already, but do we really NEED to develop this AU concept? We shall have difficulties with it, believe me!

All, what do you think on this?

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

the library might also have multiple copies of texkbooks, popular instructional books, novels, etc. Khamul and his assistant are likely to be driven crazy if they have to closely supervise every student who has lost their personal copy of a required textbook, or who couldn't afford one, or who needs to quickly look something up or who merely wants to read.
Having the Scriptorium for those doing serious research, requiring older, rarer texts is an excellent idea.

Ok, I shall organise a Public Library at the ground floor, where most common books in many copies and textbooks are kept. Books will be on the shelves, so a student would be able to fetch them himself and read at a table.

The rest - old precious handwritten books - will be in the Library proper, upstairs in the Tower. The Scriptorium will be on the second floor, above Galadannun's apartment. Then several storeys of books, where no one is normally admitted, except by the Chancellor's permission. Galadannun will have 2 assistants to supervise the Scriptorium and bring the books up and down.
Any student is allowed to come to the Scriptorium and ask for a book. The Library is closed at 6 PM. (and that is very strict).

The plan of the Library will be available soon.

[Butterbeer]

actually, although i have no objection to the library being a reasonably open rpg place ... with some sections closed off (for various reasons )

i do think old JRR wouldn't actually like the printing press in middle earth - for a whole host of reasons ...

Willow/ Lady M:

It is also reasonable to assume that Tolkien would probably not object to something enabling greater literacy rates in his world.

he may not, on that basis, object to penicillin or morphine, or fridges to store them in or air ambulances ... but i rather think he would object to transplanting them into his carefully, painstakingly created world.

but scribes, as did the monks, may copy out carefully certain books for use by the students ...

for the rpg, i see no real problem with making it a semi public place, and actually many advantages ... but i think in essence gor's point about the context and setting of third age Tharbad (with reference to the library) ... way way before bilbo and frodo who had to painstakingly hand write the red book is valid.

I think there should be a body of books and papers avaialable to students and researchers alike, with some only available to professor's, academics, experts and or very carefully controlled to others ... but for me, adding printing presses to the world may be the thin end of the wedge ...

i think willow calls it right about the ML's stated desire to turn around the 'party school' into a fine establishment - but i see no need to force in printing presses.

BTW Valandil: excellent point that tharbad was spared by the later WK ... made me laugh that ,Gor, were she (he - WK) to fortify nowish Arnor:

"heh, Witch king" says the leuitenant - "that fortress there could be tricky to take ... "

"of course! .. i designed it myself!"

"blimey that fleet looks dangerous ... what, that one there must be a 52-er??"

"no indeed - a 72!, beautiful lines, very fast and manoverable" beams the later invading witch king of Angmar, proudly ...

but seriously what i do like is us, in our semi-serious somewhat Au way, fleshing out what may have happened in between times that are not recorded ... so, why not?

The witch king of Angmar, largely spared Tharbad - for whatever reason , because he was here now ... though this will never be recorded later apparently.

but who's to say there were not tensions between the heirs of Elendil, north and south?

[Butterbeer]

mmm spooky we cross posted there Gor .. anything above relates to what you said previous to your above post. (#131)

[Gordis]

I am glad, BB, that we think alike

[Butterbeer]

well, i still disagree with you on the pie-throwing!

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for me, I intensely dislike the idea of printed books in ME. All Tolkien's world is incompatible with modern mass media- printed books culture. Bilbo painstakingly rewriting and translating old books in Elvish, Red book of Westmarch, guarded and copied by scribes many times, chronicles lost forever in the Downfall - you name it.
Universities, as you all certainly know, appeared in Europe long before the first book was printed by Johann Gutenberg, in 1440. First medieval Universities date from late 11 and 12 centuries.

I know there was a mention of a newspaper and a reporter here already, but do we really NEED to develop this AU concept? We shall have difficulties with it, believe me!

All, what do you think on this?

Gordis, I, too, intensely dislike the idea of printing presses in Tolkien's Middle-earth. To have printing presses, there must be a source of power, ie one man putting the plate in the press, etc, etc; horse power; steam; gas or electrcity. All this is too anachronistic to fit in with Tolkien's concept of Middle-earth, which appears to be set around 1000 or before. I like the idea of the real medieval times here - scribes laborously copying out the text.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I was thinking of printing presses in much smaller terms than really modern type presses, but you have good points about why they shouldn't be there.

Ok, I shall organise a Public Library at the ground floor, where most common books in many copies and textbooks are kept. Books will be on the shelves, so a student would be able to fetch them himself and read at a table.

The rest - old precious handwritten books - will be in the Library proper, upstairs in the Tower. The Scriptorium will be on the second floor, above Galadannun's apartment. Then several storeys of books, where no one is normally admitted, except by the Chancellor's permission. Galadannun will have 2 assistants to supervise the Scriptorium and bring the books up and down.
Any student is allowed to come to the Scriptorium and ask for a book. The Library is closed at 6 PM. (and that is very strict).

The plan of the Library will be available soon.

That sounds good. Let's go with that.

[Butterbeer]

Hail Lady Marion!, the victorious champion of learning for all!

hurray!

I think on all counts JRRT would be pleased.

[Gordis]

Behold the library of Minas Aran!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/Library5.jpg


About the Library:

The Public Library is on the Ground Floor, it has separate entrance, from the back of the tower.

From the Hall, the main stair leads to Khamul's appartment - Formerly Elendil's rooms.
The stair on the right of the Hall leads to the Scriptorium, and ENDS there.

Note there is NO access to the Dungeons Stairs from the Hall, it has a secret entrance from Galadannun's apartment.

To access the Library, (and the Observatory) one must pass through the Scriptorium, by the Librarian's table, and take the stairs on the left. But one can't go downstairs there, as the portion of the left stairs between the First and the Second floors is filled in.

Evil Nameless Cartographer


I am glad that the printing press will not be introduced to the ME. Thanks for support, Udu and BB!
Gordis

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

I was thinking of printing presses in much smaller terms than really modern type presses, but you have good points about why they shouldn't be there.

Marion, if we accept printing presses, we will have to decide whether they will be the kind that use woodcuts or if we can advance to the state of movable type. Then we have to figure out how the presses will be powered - hand, horse, steam, etc.

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/press.html

There is nothing simple about printing. It is an art for which Middle-earth is not ready. I see Tolkien's world not too far out of the Iron Age.