What is the Eye of Sauron?

[CAB]

This is a very interesting thread. I wish I had been around when it was active the first time. There are a couple of ideas I would like to comment on.

Concerning the One Ring as a life support system theory, I think it is possible but unlikely. I agree with Gordis’s idea that part of each (pre)Nazgul’s fea was contained by his individual ring and the destruction of that ring ends the Nazgul’s physical existence. Tied to this idea is the assumption that the Nazgul don’t really have a life anymore to support. I believe that at the moment an individual becomes a ringwraith it’s existence in entirely dependent on it’s own personal ring. The life support system idea may very likely be valid for someone who has not yet crossed the line and become a wraith though. I would have to question Telcontar Dunedain’s idea that mastery of the Ring as opposed to possession would make a difference. Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo all have their lives (or youth) extended without having ever mastered the Ring. In Gollum’s and Bilbo’s case the life extension continued long after they even possessed the Ring. Still, I suppose we don’t really know enough about how the rings work to be sure.

As for the Witch King vs. Sauron question, I think that if Sauron ever allowed the Witch King to master the One Ring (he wouldn’t) then yes he could defeat Sauron, depending on how you define defeat (see below).

What is Sauron’s real fear concerning one of the great taking possession of his Ring? Was it really such a powerful weapon of war? The (evil) power of the rings is based on control. It can be argued that the possessor of Sauron’s ring would eventually be able to control Sauron’s own forces and defeat him militarily but this couldn’t be done very quickly or easily and Sauron surely had means to oppose this kind of take over (ingrained power structure, servant’s fear of Sauron, punishment, his own still very powerful will, etc.). I would argue that the real threat is that anyone mastering the ring becomes the master of Sauron.

Think about Gordis’s (very plausible) idea that part of each Nazgul’s fea is contained in it’s individual ring. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Sauron put a great deal of himself into the One Ring during it’s creation. Sauron is able to control the Nazgul without possession of the One Ring because he holds each ring which enslaves the Nazgul. Sauron made himself a slave to the One Ring thinking that no other would ever possess it. I believe that anyone who masters the One Ring would thus control Sauron just as he controls the Nazgul.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Faramir

I think some of his actions, pushing the Fellowship in a certain direction and not acting when the Ring was in the Dead Marshes, were really an attempt to get the Ring closer to Minas Morgul, where he had his fellow Nazgul, a host of armies, and it was, sort of, out of the reach of Sauron.

I would say it was an attempt to get the Ring closer to Orodruin.

You must admit: during the hunt, the WK had plenty of opportunities to get the Ring. The last one was in the Morgul Vale. Clearly he didn't want to.

Minas Morgul is too close to Mordor to be out of reach of Sauron. His troops - at least the orcs were primarily under Sauron's control, I believe, not the WK's. Reread Shagrat / Gorbag's talk. Gorbag was from Minas Morgul. He hated and feared the nazgul. Were there a confrontation between the WK and Sauron, they would have supported Sauron.

Originally Posted by Faramir

IMO, the only thing that really stoped him from taking the Ring for himself was the fact he didn't know what to do with Sauron. I mean, as long as the Ring existed so did Sau. Maybe he was still trying to figure out a way to 'trap' Sau's spirit. Put his eye in a jar of phamaldehide and place it on a mantle in Minas Morgul or something. Remeber when Frodo was on the Secret Stair and ol' Wikkie felt him there and sent some 'guys' to check it out, what if they found Frodo, would they have taken him directly to Barad-Dur, or would they have brought him down the hill to the much closer Minus Morgul where Wikkie(I love that name btw ) was?

I don't think the Morgul Lord would have been much concerned about what to do with Sauron's spirit. But to turn him into a spirit, one had to KILL him first - not a minor problem. To kill or TO DESTROY HIS ONE RING. That last part was what the WK was trying to do.

Note, that even the Wise didn't know what will happen with other Rings if the One ware destroyed:

`But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'
`Yet all the Elves are willing to endure this chance,' said Glorfindel 'if by it the power of Sauron may be broken, and the fear of his dominion be taken away for ever.'LOTR-Counsil of Elrond

Now the nazgul might have hoped that the destruction of the One would destroy Sauron forever, but leave their Rings intact and free. In the worst case, they only faced Death, but they would be free all the same, and finally receive the Gift of Eru.

Originally Posted by Faramir

As to the control of the Nazgul theory, I think Sau did control the Nazzies with them but wasn't that control tied to the One? And if the WK had the One wouldn't that control shift to him? Then when he had the power to control his buddies he could then some Orcs, or even one of the Nazgul, to Barad-Dur to retrieve his ring and bring it back to him. Maybe tell Sau that they have some problems and they are there to take Wikkies ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it and then bust a right, straight to Minus Morgul laughing the whole way "Sucker!"

Far too easy...

[Gordis]

CAB, I am glad you don't buy the life-support machine theory for nazgul. I agree that the wraithification was that point of no return, when the wraith's existence becomes dependant on the one particular ring that has ensnared him

Originally Posted by CAB

As for the Witch King vs. Sauron question, I think that if Sauron ever allowed the Witch King to master the One Ring (he wouldn’t) then yes he could defeat Sauron, depending on how you define defeat (see below).

The Ring will be unwilling, but not as much as in the case of Isildur or Gandalf. I think he could master it. But Sauron had the Nine. That is the main problem..

What is Sauron’s real fear concerning one of the great taking possession of his Ring? Was it really such a powerful weapon of war? The (evil) power of the rings is based on control. It can be argued that the possessor of Sauron’s ring would eventually be able to control Sauron’s own forces and defeat him militarily but this couldn’t be done very quickly or easily and Sauron surely had means to oppose this kind of take over (ingrained power structure, servant’s fear of Sauron, punishment, his own still very powerful will, etc.). I would argue that the real threat is that anyone mastering the ring becomes the master of Sauron.
Think about Gordis’s (very plausible) idea that part of each Nazgul’s fea is contained in it’s individual ring. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Sauron put a great deal of himself into the One Ring during it’s creation. Sauron is able to control the Nazgul without possession of the One Ring because he holds each ring which enslaves the Nazgul. Sauron made himself a slave to the One Ring thinking that no other would ever possess it. I believe that anyone who masters the One Ring would thus control Sauron just as he controls the Nazgul.

CAB, your idea that anyone mastering the Ring becomes a master of Sauron. is correct, IMHO. But I don't think it was ONLY because Sauron put a large part of his fea in it at its making. I think it was ALSO and MOSTLY because he had 12 Great Rings in his possession (3 dwarven + 9nazgul), and ALL of them were controlled by the One. If Gandalf/Erlond/Galadriel/Saruman claimed the One, Sauron had to stop wielding the 12 immediately - otherwise all HIS designs would be revealed to the new Ring Lord. He would become a slave himself.
He could put the 12 rings away, bury them deep, but then, he would loose his conteol over the nazgul and leave them vulnerable to the call of the new Ring Lord.
He could destroy the 12, destroying the nazgul, but that would weaken him greatly - it I am right that his accumulation of Power in the Third Age was primarily due to gathering the Rings.

So, any wannabe Ring Lord was a threat to Sauron - even Aragorn, or Boromir.

But the Witch-King had his very existence in Sauron's hands - his Ring, so he would have been much easier to deal with. Just throw his ring into the Cracks of Doom and he is no more.

[CAB]

Well Gordis we seem to agree for the most part.

Actually, I am (and was) just as convinced as you that the Witch King could never claim the One. As you say, Sauron held his ring (and life) in his hand. There were actually steps Sauron could take to stop the Witch King before the final move of destroying him (threatening and control via the Witch King’s ring come to mind.) The Witch King was well aware of this and so would never try to claim the One Ring. The reason I answered as I did was because Butterbeer emphasized that this was a hypothetical question. Agreed; Sauron would not let this scenario occur.

I am going to differ with you somewhat concerning the importance of the other rings to Sauron should someone master the One. I agree that if Sauron continued to hold the other rings the new Ringlord’s grip on Sauron would be increased but I think his bond to the One Ring was more important. He was enslaved to it. The other rings held much of his power, yes, but the One held much of his power and his life. This is precisely how Sauron controlled the Nazgul after he lost the One Ring. He held the rings to which they were enslaved, no other bond was necessary. Also, as you have said, Sauron can simply remove the other great rings. There is no undoing his tie with the One short of the One's destruction.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Far too easy...

Well, I tried.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I answered as I did was because Butterbeer emphasized that this was a hypothetical question.

Yes, that's why it was so difficult to answer.
For me it was much like: "If Frodo could fly, will he be able to reach Orodruin?"

Originally Posted by CAB

I am going to differ with you somewhat concerning the importance of the other rings to Sauron should someone master the One. I agree that if Sauron continued to hold the other rings the new Ringlord’s grip on Sauron would be increased but I think his bond to the One Ring was more important. He was enslaved to it. The other rings held much of his power, yes, but the One held much of his power and his life. This is precisely how Sauron controlled the Nazgul after he lost the One Ring. He held the rings to which they were enslaved, no other bond was necessary. Also, as you have said, Sauron can simply remove the other great rings. There is no undoing his tie with the One short of the One's destruction.

You have convinced me, CAB. Yes, Sauron in the third Age was slave to the One.
If he removed all the other Rings, he would be much diminished and would have no power to counter that large part of the original Himself that was contained in the One Ring. His plight would be great if someone of power took the One.