Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!

[Jon S.]

Thanks for your post, Ingwe. Personally, I come out differently on several of the issues you've touched on but as with all mysteries, viva la differance.

One difference I will mention now is concerning your using the adjective "complete" to describe Tom's mystery. In fact, he's not a complete mystery but merely a partial one. I say this because we know what his name is, what he looks like, where he lives, who's his wife, what she looks like, some of what he says, some of what he does, and the same for his wife. That's a fair bit o' info. in my book.

[Ingwe]

The nature of Tom being of course the complete mystery. He had a couple of names, Tom and Iarwain Ben-adar, and some by the Dwarves. That part isn't a mystery, nor is his apparent location in Middle Earth at that time. His nature is of course the mystery. He probably named himself of course, being one of the first, if not THE first. Tom Bombadil is a pretty cool name and I'd probably consider using that name if I were him. Either that or Max Power.

Another explanation I find very...interesting...is the one in this link: The Truth About Tom Bombadil.

[Jon S.]

Yes, I remember that one, LOL!

[Ingwe]

Tom Bombadil was either nature, or one of the songs of Eru, or just the essence of Eru's idea, or perhaps just a multi-personality disorder Witch-King. LoL. Too bad when they disassembled Minas Morgul that they didn't find the Witch-King's private diary. It may have had something in there about it LoL. Or maybe they did find something. No one now knows.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Remember even to the characters in the story Bombadil is a bit of a mystery. He was a mystery to the author as well. But since this all about our own speculation I believe he was the essence of life - the breath of Eru. When dealing with the Tolkien Universe I view the stories of the Silmarrillion as mythical stories of creation and ancient warriors where as the Lord of the Rings as an historical recording of events. Any ancient narrative regarding the nature of the universe pails in comparison to the wonders revealed via true events - just as the ancient myths that have defined the various cultures around today pail when looking at the wonders of the universe that we have barely begun to understand.

[ecthelion]

He was the conductor of the music !

Eru was the composer, and he intervened three times inside the music, but who really was the conductor? Old Bombadil !

That's why he's the master, but nothing belongs to him.

He wasn't part of the music, and the music does not hold him as fate.

*puts on bulletproof vest*

opinions?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Say, that's a good idea! *pulls out a machine gun* I mean, really, it's a good thought. *eats the machine gun, because it's made of liquorice* That would make sense. Though couldn't he still have his origin in Eru's last song? It was an independent being, sorta...

[Coffeehouse]

In a post written many years ago, the following link was given, http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html, on who Tom Bombadil is.
Gene Hargrove, the author of the essay, argues that not only would it have been unlikely that JRRT did not know of the true nature of Bombadil, but also makes a very convincing argument that Tom Bombadil is Aule and that his wife Goldberry is Yavanna.

I think it's a good theory, and by far the most convincing I've come across as of yet. Thought I'd share some of the similiarities G. Hargrove presents in his essay:

"Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills."

and
"When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person."

[GrayMouser]

The problem with that is that Bombadil is not in the least bit interested in making things- if anything, Aule is the direct opposite to Bombadil.

Can you imagine old Tom championing the Dwarves over the Ents?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

The problem with that is that Bombadil is not in the least bit interested in making things- if anything, Aule is the direct opposite to Bombadil.

Can you imagine old Tom championing the Dwarves over the Ents?

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.

In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.

If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal.

[Earniel]

But I don't think that quite addresses what GrayMouser said. Aulë is the world-smith, it's one if not the defining quality of him. While Tom may correspond with Aulë in certain side characteristics, he is not a smith or a creator of things.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But I don't think that quite addresses what GrayMouser said. Aulë is the world-smith, it's one if not the defining quality of him. While Tom may correspond with Aulë in certain side characteristics, he is not a smith or a creator of things.

"It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. "

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible. And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible.

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"In this sense, Tolkien says, Tom's presence reveals that there are people and things in the world for whom the war is largely irrelevant or at least unimportant, and who cannot be easily disturbed or interfered with in terms of it (Ibid., pp. 178-79). Although Tom would fall if the Dark Lord wins ("Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron," Ibid.), he would probably be "the Last as he was the First" (Rings, 1:279)."

[...]

"There are, for example, two Glorfindels in his history of Middle earth, one who died fighting a Balrog in the First Age, and another from Rivendell who lent Frodo his horse in the race to Imladris. This situation was, if not a problem, at least a bit unusual, and required special attention from Tolkien, since in general Elf names are unique to particular individuals. Rather than simply renaming one of the Elves, Tolkien concluded that they were the same person and that he had stumbled onto a rare case of reincarnation among the Elves. He then devoted some time to an examination of the theological implications of this special case."

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through...

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"We know from the Silmarillion that Orome once hunted in Middle-earth, Ulmo had dealings with the Elves there, Olorin walked among the Elves unseen before he was Gandalf, and Melian spent a great deal of time in Beleriand with Thingol. There is thus ample evidence for occasional visits of such beings, even for the most frivolous or personal reasons."

[GrayMouser]

Yes, my main point was that Aule's character, his essence, was totally different from Bombadil's- Bombadil is a nature spirit, totally uninterested in things that are made. Wasn't it said that he would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, because he would simply forget it or throw it away? Could Aule the Smith be so uninterested in one of the most powerful things ever forged?

Again, Gandalf says at the end of RotK that Bombadil wouldn't be interested in anything they'd done, except maybe visiting the Ents. Why would Aule be so empathetic to Ents, who were specifically created to thwart his own creations, the Dwarves?

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

"It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. "

Don't have my book handy, so can't remember whether it's Elrond or Gandalf who says that Tom has no power over the Ring; rather it's the Ring has no power over him. Why? Because he's not interested in making or controlling things.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. [/I]"

This could go for every Vala and I'm sure a few of the stronger maiar as well. There is no reason why only Aulë would be able to withdraw himself from the powerful influence from his student's work. One might argue it makes a more esthetic match, the former teacher against the work of his student. But the evidence for only Aulë is IMO too thin. In that aspect, Oromë interests and characteristics be would more likely to Tom's than Aulë.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Gene Hargrove

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring

Originally Posted by Tolkien

`Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. `It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'

`No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. `Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.'

We tend to believe the second source more. Yes, we do, my precioussss....

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Yes, my main point was that Aule's character, his essence, was totally different from Bombadil's- Bombadil is a nature spirit, totally uninterested in things that are made. Wasn't it said that he would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, because he would simply forget it or throw it away? Could Aule the Smith be so uninterested in one of the most powerful things ever forged?

Again, Gandalf says at the end of RotK that Bombadil wouldn't be interested in anything they'd done, except maybe visiting the Ents. Why would Aule be so empathetic to Ents, who were specifically created to thwart his own creations, the Dwarves?

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"It is possible that the nature spirit theory has been held so long because no one could think of an alternative. Consider Jarred Lobdell's treatment of Tom Bombadil in England and Always, published in 1981. Declaring Tom to be the "least successful creation" in the trilogy, he continues:

"Standing alone, he would be a nature spirit.... But he is not standing alone. . . . He is not the genius of the earth, since he is restricted to one part of it. . . . He is apparently a man, since he is clearly not an Elf or a Dwarf or an Ent or a Hobbit or one of the fallen races, but he is not one of the Men of the West. I suppose one could save the appearances by making him an angel, of a different order from the Istari, or by making him a god, but in both cases we would be in conflict with Tolkien's mythology. (pp. 62-63)"
Lokdell eventually concludes that Tom is an anomaly: "Although I find him an anomalous creation, I can make shift to account for him theologically - but only with the uneasy feeling that making shift is all that I am doing (p. 63)."

While I can agree that Tom is not a nature spirit, a Man, an Elf, a Dwarf, or a Hobbit, I see no reason why Lobdell should reject the possibility that he is an angel or a god - in terms of Tolkien's mythology, a Maia or a Vala."
[...]
"While Tolkien's denial clearly rules out the possibility that Tom is Iluvatar, I do not see that it eliminates the possibility that he is an offspring of Iluvatar's thought, a Vala or a Maia, for I see nothing theologically troublesome with existence being a predicate of part of God."

"Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it."

"Although this interpretation of Tom's singing is inconsistent with the general claim that Tom is nonrational, it is not inconsistent with Tolkien's own characterization of Tom in two letters in 1954, in which Tom is associated with the pure scientific study of nature. Tolkien writes:"

". . . [Tom] is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular emboding of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly entirely unconcerned with 'doing' annulling with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany, not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. (Letters, p. 192; see also, p. 174)"

"As the exemplification of pure science, Tom could hardly be nonrational. Tom's purity, moreover, stems from his desire to delight in things as they are, without dominating and controlling them. The former is the aim of pure science, the latter the essential aims of applied science. Tom's knowledge of nature allows him to control nature when necessary, but because such control is not his aim, he is more akin to science than engineering."

[...]

"He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves."
[...]
"While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar."

Originally Posted by Eärniel

This could go for every Vala and I'm sure a few of the stronger maiar as well. There is no reason why only Aulë would be able to withdraw himself from the powerful influence from his student's work. One might argue it makes a more esthetic match, the former teacher against the work of his student. But the evidence for only Aulë is IMO too thin. In that aspect, Oromë interests and characteristics be would more likely to Tom's than Aulë.

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"Robert Foster in the Complete Guide (p. 496) thus seems to be on the right track when he suggests that "it is possible that he is a Maia 'gone native'." The only problem is that there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character. It is only when one turns to the Valar themselves that potential candidates emerge."

[...]

"Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit."

"In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:"

"In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves."

"When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna."