Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Gordis]

Ohh… another great old thread- my first one, indeed. I confess I haven’t re-read it now, partly because it is so long, but partly on purpose: to have a fresh view of the matter.

I think you are right, CAB (and Olmer), that the people MOST interested in Isildur’s death, VITALLY interested even, were those who had the other rings of power: Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, the 9 nazgul, maybe also the Dwarf-lords (though the latter were never really governed by the One – so I leave them out). It is just totally unrealistic to think that they would have waited idly for a new Ringlord to emerge and enslave them.

On one hand, we have the ambush on the East bank – led by “the grim servants of Barad-Dur(UT)”. Now can we be sure that there wasn’t a single Ringwraith among them? We know that some/most/all (??) of the nazgul fled East after the Fall of Barad-Dur - but in two years they might have returned. Alternatively, as we are never told about the nazgul during the fights of the Last Alliance, probably some have always been away from Mordor – preparing and leading reinforcements from the subject lands or prowling on the Alliance’s communication lines. Anyway, we are told that the orcs were drawn to the Ring – and if there were Ringwraiths in Mirkwood it gets so much easier to explain how they spotted the Ring. Also it might explain why the invisible Isildur chose to swim over (a rather perilous thing to attempt, specially at night) and not to run upstream or downstream or into the trees and hide.

On the other hand, we have an ambush on the West bank – because Isildur was slain near the West bank: his body was found there by Saruman, and Gollum found the Ring by the west bank, as he lived on the west bank near the Gladden river (see here: http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/index.html)
And this ambush is interesting. Think about it: west bank, right midway between Rivendell and Lorien, two years after the victory. Was it likely to find orcs there? Not at all likely, if you ask me, next to impossible even. Any orc would have long ago moved upriver a bit, crossed to the East bank at the “old Ford” and joined the Mirkwood company – or gone to hide in the caves of the Misty mountains. Much more likely was to find Elves on the west bank- namely Elrond and Galadriel and some of their people.

Originally Posted by CAB

I disagree with Olmer that the Elves attacked the men of Arnor themselves. Whether they could have hidden the signs of their involvement from the searchers that would eventually come, I can't say, but the Elves surely could not hide such an ambush from the Palantiri. Probably, Isildur's journey north was being tracked by his people through the Seeing Stones. ..To me, the best answer is that the Elves somehow "tipped off" a suitably large and well positioned orc force about the Arnoreans' march.

I agree with CAB. The first part- the fighting on the East bank- seems OK: happened as reported. It had a few surviving witnesses and the area was later examined not only by the Elves, but also by Men from surrounding areas and likely by Valandil’s mannish entourage from Rivendell. As for the Palantiri, (see my thread here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...401#post598401) it is unknown if Isildur was followed via the Seeing Stones or not, but the Elves had to expect it – so they couldn’t have ambushed the 200-strong Dunedain party in plain daylight themselves and hope to get away with it.

But… they likely knew about the big orc force on the other bank and chose NOT to warn Isildur.

Let us go further. Isildur swam across the river. But did the Ring abandon Isildur or was he slain with the Ring on? If he was slain by Calaquendi Elves (like Galadriel, or Glorfindel, or Gildor and Co) or ring-wielders (like Elrond) then he might have been slain while invisible to mortal eyes, still wearing the Ring. But the Ring was later found separately from Isildur’s body, so those who slew him had to take off the Ring from his finger and throw it into the river. It is unlikely: very strange hiding place – so near the bank. Why not damp it in the middle of the river or better still throw it into the Sea (Orodruin being dormant)?
So, I believe this part is also correct: the Ring abandoned Isildur while he was approaching the west bank.

Why did the Ring choose this exact moment to slip off? Did it want to get lost in the River? Unlikely, and note that it didn’t slip in the middle of the river, but by the bank. The Ring had no senses of its own, IMO, it only processed the feelings of its wielder (for the explanations see here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...400#post598400 ).

It must have slipped because Isildur saw someone/something awaiting him on the West bank – but what? Orcs? But how could Isildur, an inexperienced Ring-wielder, see the concealed orcs at night, while he was still in the hazy World of Shadow? See this quote about Sam:

But they marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.

And who is so very visible in the hazy world of Shadow? Nazgul, right, but also Calaquendi Elves:

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

I guess Isildur saw Elves and was glad. The Ring “saw” them (through his eyes) and was not. It preferred to lie on the bottom of the river for centuries than to get into the Elves’s hands. So it slipped off.

Did the Elves start shooting when Isildur were still invisible? Maybe yes, maybe not, but the Calaquendi must have identified the Wannabe Ringlord without doubt. Likely they were waiting for the man to get out of the water. And they had to kill him – because otherwise he would have done everything to retrieve the Ring, as he knew exactly where he lost it.

Originally Posted by Valandil

And (by that theory - I'm not on board with it yet), the Elves sort of allow themselves the concession that there will still be a descendant of Elendil and Isildur to take the thone of Arnor, since there was still a young one under Elrond's care back in Imladris. He just wouldn't have the Ring.

Elves are good people, after all. They should have felt remorse, that’s why they constantly cared for the line of Isildur-Valandil, but not for the Gondorian line of Anarion.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Perhaps, on reflection, he'd even see it as a better fate for his ancestor, than the alternative...

Definitely. Kind of like the difference between being an Abraham Lincoln or a Hitler.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, I believe this part is also correct: the Ring abandoned Isildur while he was approaching the west bank.

While I like your explanation, I still don't agree with this. You have included two of the reasons why in your post (how thoughtful).


I get the impression that Isildur was on the run for quite awhile after fleeing from the battle. Supposedly he first "ran like a stag from the hounds" and then "halted, to make sure that he was not pursued" and "then he went on more warily". Seems reasonable, pretty much what anyone in the same position would do, I think. I also think that what pretty much anyone (including Isildur) would do is take off the Ring after the post sprint pause. Here's why.

First, the sprint probably would have continued if he thought that Orcs were near behind him.

Second, the Ring was still extremely hot at this time, burning him. I know that fear can overcome pain for a while, but not forever. Once the initial rush wore off, the burning would probably be unbearable.

Originally Posted by Gordis

while he was still in the hazy World of Shadow

Third, Isildur wouldn't want to sneak around with his senses impaired if he could help it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

chose to swim over (a rather perilous thing to attempt, specially at night)

Last, and to me probably most important, he surely wouldn't want to cross a river at night with his senses impaired. Only a fool would do such a thing, and as soon as some water got in the lungs, the fool would probably wise up. If the Orcs were right behind him, that would be another matter of course, but it seems that they were not.

[Olmer]

It was fun to re-read the whole thread, it refreshed my memory and made me realise of being mistaken about some points.

CAB, I like your observation on Isildur's escape, seems he has had another purpose than just to run away and hide, because as invisible you can walk through the wood for miles being unnoticeable. But plunging into a swirling and swift river with a "little hope to gain the other shore"(UT) is looking like having a death wish.
Besides, swimming in the water is the most blatant way to reveal yourself even being invisible.
I agree with you that Isildur was not keeping the Ring on his finger, since he "dread the pain of touching it"(UT) So he would put on the Ring only in an extreme situation, which might has happened twice: on the battlefield and when he was swimming in the river. If in the first instance I agree with Gordis on a possible presence of a lesser Ringwraith among the attackers, then the second is totally open to a speculation.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Think about it: west bank, right midway between Rivendell and Lorien, two years after the victory. Was it likely to find orcs there? Not at all likely, if you ask me, next to impossible even. Any orc would have long ago moved upriver a bit, crossed to the East bank at the “old Ford” and joined the Mirkwood company

Don't forget that Dunedain were walking on a friendly territory even on the East bank of the river."People of the Vales had been his allies in victory." (UT) and Amon Lanc (future Dol Guldur) at that time was elve's dwelling.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Olmer

If in the first instance I agree with Gordis on a possible presence of a lesser Ringwraith among the attackers, then the second is totally open to a speculation.

I don't think I would agree that a Ringwraith was present, but the ferocity of the Orcs' attack (many were basically sacrificing themselves to defeat the Arnoreans) could be evidence for this. Maybe rather than being pulled by the Ring, the Orcs were being pushed by a Nazgul.

[Valandil]

Grrrrr... I loaned out my copy of UT 6 months ago, and still haven't got it back, so pardon me if I can't refer to what is written there.

As for swimming the Gladden - why, Olmer, do you say that he had 'little hope to gain the other shore'? And you have it in quotes - was that in the UT account? I don't remember it, but I do remember from the 'Description of Numenor' that the Numenoreans excelled at swimming. Besides - he apparently made it all the way, until he unfortunately met a winged messenger at the other side (of whose sending, we seem to be at odds).

Also Olmer - I don't think the Ring was STILL so hot. It was when he wrote the scroll which Gandalf recounted to Frodo. But it was now going on two years since he had taken it from Sauron's finger. He also says there, 'even as I write it is cooled...'

Gordis - the west bank may have been between Lorien and Rivendell, but there were a LOT of miles between the two, as well as a great mountain range. That area was pretty clearly wilderness, and we shouldn't assume it was settled & 'safe' just because it lay in between those two lands.

As for Orc archers being stationed there as the UT account says, they may have just been sent there - maybe as soon as the Orcs spotted Isildur's convoy. They could have sent some lads across the way in a hidden boat or two, knowing that they would attack from the east, so that they might pick up escapees who might make it across the river, if any escaped that way. I don't think there's a need to suppose that this detachment of Orc archers had been sitting there for 10 years or so.

As for the 'dread the pain of touching it'- which you quote from the UT account, why do you discard so much of what that account says, but keep that piece? Are you folks just picking and choosing parts that support an alternate theory, and tossing out parts that oppose it?

[Gordis]

CAB - I see your reasons to think that Isildur took off the Ring before getting into the water. But taking it off, he would most likely put it into that special locker he had with him and which Saruman later recovered. No way could the Ring slip out of that one. So your argument implies either:
1. that the killers of Isildur took the Ring out of the locker and threw it into the river, and then dumped Isildur's body (with Elendilmir, precious locker etc.) into the river separately. That is impossible if the attackers were Orcs, very unlikely with Elves.
2. or that Isildur, while swimming, took the Ring out of the locker and attempted to put it on his finger when it slipped off by its own volition.
3. or that isildur, while swimming, took the ring out of the locker and deliberately let it sink - not to give it to those waiting for him on the west bank (that was Olmer's idea early in this thread)

[Gordis]

Val, I don't think any of us are deliberately disregarding information from UT or LOTR.
Here is the quote Olmer mentioned: "He was a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dúnedain of that age could equal, but he had little hope to gain the other shore." (I guess because the river was swift here and he was vert tired already)

When Isildur got the Ring it was "hot as a glede", then it was gradually cooling but still painful to wear.

"Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Note, Val, that the Ring was hot, but seemingly Isildur did make some unsuccessful attempts to bend it to its will. But, as it was in TA 2, he couldn’t even attempt to cow orcs.
On the other hand, the nazgul (if present)had to be apprehensive of the one who had the ring, so it made sense that even if all the nine were there nearby, driving the orcs onwards, they themselves would stay away:

The hunt for the Ring, Readers Companion p 164-5: “If [the ringbearer] is a person of power and knowledge he may find out indeed how to use it, and compel a Nazgûl to leave him unmolested at the least.”

Then here is some settings info: the fight happened at the beginning of October TA 2. The orcs attacked before sunset , that would be around 6-7 pm, I guess. The river was "seven leagues or more from the place of battle. Night had fallen when [Isildur] fled; he reached Anduin at midnight or near it. [Author's note.27]"
I was unable to find out what the phase of the Moon was - a pity, but it looks like the sky was overcast anyway.
Note that if the night were very dark, Isildur wearing the ring might see better than a mortal - the case of Sam in Shelob's lair. Maybe Isildur left the ring on, while he swam, because it is said: "Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth."

And that's how Isildur lost his ring according to UT

Before he had gone far he was forced to turn almost north against the current; and strive as he might he was ever swept down towards the tangles of the Gladden Fields. They were nearer than he had thought, 29 and even as he felt the stream slacken and had almost won across he found himself struggling among great rushes and clinging weeds. There suddenly he knew that the Ring had gone. By chance, or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more, and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away. His feet found the river bed, and heaving himself up out of the mud he floundered through the reeds to a marshy islet close to the west¬ern shore. There he rose up out of the water: only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Mid¬dle-earth. But to the night-eyed Orcs that lurked there on the watch he loomed up, a monstrous shadow of fear, with a piercing eye like a star. They loosed their poisoned arrows at it, and fled. Needlessly, for Isildur unarmed was pierced through heart and throat, and without a cry he fell back into the water. No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men.

What of it is correct, what isn't?

And the last sentence might be especially interesting for you, Val.

So passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless Ring: Isildur, second King of all the Dúnedain, lord of Arnor and Gondor, and in that age of the World the last.

So, it looks like Valandil and his descendants never claimed that title after all - before Aragorn.

[Valandil]

Gordis - the main thing some of you may be disregarding is the 'who shot whom' - but that's very important, of course.

I still think the Ring had cooled (since Isildur had written in the scroll describing it that it cooled - as recounted at the Council of Elrond). Perhaps it was painful to Isildur for some other reason.

As to the very last - conflicting information, or at least when it says he is the 'last' - it may mean the last to be recognized as King of both Arnor and Gondor - while not excluding the possibility of a King of Arnor still being considered "High King" over both. I believe Appendix A is clear that the Kings of Arnor were considered High Kings all the way through Earendur - up to the time of Arnor's Division.

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? No "true believers" left out there?


BTW - my comment about this being a view of the Elves that makes them seem more 'perilous' was refering to comments by the Professor himself. At least that's how I THINK he put it. He makes it plain that it isn't an easy thing for Men to just go off frolicking with Elves - as many people seem to want to perceive things. So THAT part of it, I was just implying, does lend some credence to this theory. But... we cannot fully explore it unless someone argues the reverse, can we?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

CAB - I see your reasons to think that Isildur took off the Ring before getting into the water. But taking it off, he would most likely put it into that special locker he had with him and which Saruman later recovered. No way could the Ring slip out of that one. So your argument implies either:
1. that the killers of Isildur took the Ring out of the locker and threw it into the river, and then dumped Isildur's body (with Elendilmir, precious locker etc.) into the river separately. That is impossible if the attackers were Orcs, very unlikely with Elves.
2. or that Isildur, while swimming, took the Ring out of the locker and attempted to put it on his finger when it slipped off by its own volition.
3. or that isildur, while swimming, took the ring out of the locker and deliberately let it sink - not to give it to those waiting for him on the west bank (that was Olmer's idea early in this thread)

There are probably other options. For one, perhaps the Elvish hunters made their move as Isildur approached the river. He, being aware of his danger, tried to take out the Ring, and lost it in the water. I'm sure their are other possible scenarios. As for the options you gave, number one doesn't sound terribly unreasonable for the Elves to me. They would only be doing what they were sent to do.

As for the heat of the Ring, there do seem to be some inconsistencies. As far as this theory goes though, it isn't really important. What is important is that wearing the Ring was causing Isildur great pain, whether through burning or something else. When he put the Ring on, this tough, war hardened, king of the Numenoreans, cried out in pain. I don't think he would leave it on his finger any longer than necessary.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

There are probably other options. For one, perhaps the Elvish hunters made their move as Isildur approached the river. He, being aware of his danger, tried to take out the Ring, and lost it in the water.

That is my option number 2!

Val: I have read 2-3 pages (this thread is really soo... long) and I saw that I used to defend Elrond. Oh how young and naive I used to be 2 years ago...
But seriously, I still don't think Elrond was in it by his own choice: likely he was compelled by his soon-to-be mother-in-law. They were likely all living in Rivendell at the time. Galadriel herself probably sent some trusted elves, and maybe even came herself. Unlike Elrond, she had no reason to pity Isildur.
The other one I see there is Glorfindel. Maybe he was in charge.

As for the moral side of it ... it would have been strange if the Elves did nothing at all to prevent Isildur becoming the next Dark Lord and their master. It would have been weakness on their part to sit and watch idly.

I don't believe Isildur really had an intention to give the Ring to the keepers of the Three: he might have played with the thought, but actually give it away is another thing.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That is my option number 2!

Umm...that's not quite how I meant it. If he was running towards the water, got an arrow in the back, and fell or lurched into the river, then he wasn't swimming and it wasn't necessarily the Ring choosing to leave him.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Umm...that's not quite how I meant it. If he was running towards the water, got an arrow in the back, and fell or lurched into the river, then he wasn't swimming and it wasn't necessarily the Ring choosing to leave him.

Then it would have happened by the East bank - and the Ring was found by the West Bank.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? No "true believers" left out there?

Now you know how I used to feel!

Originally Posted by Valandil

As for Orc archers being stationed there as the UT account says, they may have just been sent there - maybe as soon as the Orcs spotted Isildur's convoy.

Sent into the Lorien domain to do - what? Were they expecting Isildur with the Ring over there?
Besides, to get on another side it’s not the matter of two boats, it is much more complicated task, since the river Anduin is very swift and running in a deep gorge. You can get to another side only by the bridge at the Cirith Forn en Andrath and at the Undeeps, south of Lorien’s border. Even to approach the sothern shore of Gladden field would be a problem, because the eastern side of the valley was very steep.
But what it worth mentioning is that from the Gladden Fields to the realm of Lorien was stretching out the area of Silvan Elves' first settlement, which , no doubt, was controlled by Galadhrim. So it’s more likely to meet the elves over there than the orcs.

Originally Posted by CAB

Maybe rather than being pulled by the Ring, the Orcs were being pushed by a Nazgul.

On the list of who will be NOT interested in the unity of Gondor and Arnor we did not consider one more aspect.
Among not interested also should be mentioned Umbar, Harad and Khand. They had a reason to worry about a military potential of two united kingdoms of the powerful Numenorians under the ruling of the Ring wielder. As a history has proved later , it was not unfounded worries: after conquering Harad , even without the help of Isildur with the Ring, Gondor’s dominion reached an enormous size, extending up to the sea of Rhun, and theopressed countries had to endure unbearable levies and humiliations from Gondor .
So, they had the motives for Isildur’s elimination. They had potentials too. And also they have had an information, I wouldn’t consider them as stupid and ignorant to the growing treat. Then such unusual and fierece group of Commando-orcs could be just a troop of assassins- shahids, payed off by Umbar, Harad and ect.
As for the Nazgul, I doubt they were the Nine. I was talking about the lesser wraith who might stayed nearby as an observers to make sure that the Ringbearer wouldn’t slip away in a wrong direction.

Gordis is absolutely right, a self-preservance and protection of his oun country’s interests would be the most reasonable action of any ruler. Galadriel was a very smart politician and definitely wouldn’t ignore such obvious treat for a well-being of the Elves, so the archers were already waiting for Isildur.
I also think that he just toyed with an idea to give the Ring to the Keepers, but it was up to the ring to choose the time to change the Keeper.
My scenario is that Isildur saw who was waiting for him on the western shore and took out the Ring to put it on finger in order to hide himself from those who awaits him . But he did not even had a time to put it on the finger, the Ring already sensed that he is a "goner" and “had left his hand”. (UT)
Near the shore he was being demanded to surrender the Ring, but upon realization that the Ring is gone, they just finished him. After that little incident the Lord of the United Kingdom would be too dangerous for Elve’s health even without the Ring .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

But what it worth mentioning is that from the Gladden Fields to the realm of Lorien was stretching out the area of Silvan Elves' first settlement, which , no doubt, was controlled by Galadhrim. So it’s more likely to meet the elves over there than the orcs.

I don't remember this part. Where is it from?

What was not mentioned here yet, is that the East bank was largely controlled by Thranduil's Elves. Isildur was attacked on the path leading to Thranduil's city. But given the animosity between Thranduil and the ringbearers Galadriel and Elrond, I doubt that Thranduil was in the conspiracy. Had they given him a ring it would have been another matter...

Originally Posted by Olmer

Among not interested also should be mentioned Umbar, Harad and Khand. They had a reason to worry about a military potential of two united kingdoms of the powerful Numenorians under the ruling of the Ring wielder. As a history has proved later , it was not unfounded worries: after conquering Harad , even without the help of Isildur with the Ring, Gondor’s dominion reached an enormous size, extending up to the sea of Rhun, and theopressed countries had to endure unbearable levies and humiliations from Gondor .
So, they had the motives for Isildur’s elimination. They had potentials too. And also they have had an information, I wouldn’t consider them as stupid and ignorant to the growing treat. Then such unusual and fierece group of Commando-orcs could be just a troop of assassins- shahids, payed off by Umbar, Harad and ect.

I don't think there were any Haradians that far north. Firstly the orcs didn't even know of Mordor's defeat(UT). Then the Ring was a big secret known only to Sauron and the nazgul (UT). So, I don't believe the Haradians set off hunting Isildur. Likely this detachment was there during the Siege of Barad Dur, and maybe it was commanded by one of the Nine.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? No "true believers" left out there?

Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue?

Nobody suggested Elves and Orcs were in league.
But Elves were the most interested to do him in - any investigation will make them prime suspects.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Nobody suggested Elves and Orcs were in league.

Perhaps not specifically in this thread, but it has been stated by our resident Elven Conspiracy theorists on previous occasions.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't remember this part. Where is it from?.

Same book, same chapter, note#13, also it was metioned in a chapter about Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think there were any Haradians that far north.

Hm... If in Bree the "squint-eyed southerners" felt themselves like home, what would keep them to venture on a much close to their homeland journey?
On another hand, why not Haradrim or Numenoreans from Umbar? Even without taking in consideration Isildur's ring, they had a good reason to be distressed by a prospect of a powerful ex-Numenorean kingdom as a next-door neighbor.
Does not surprise you that the orcs, which in stature and power were less advantaged than the Numenoreans,who were usually "towering above the tallest Orcs", suddenly shown such resillience and mastery, that Dunedain of Numenor's origin couldn't overcome them, while Boromir of much lesser blood and endurance easily smote enemy 20 times outnumbered him? Doesn't it come to the mind that to get such defeat you have to fight not with midgets with short swords and spears, and with arrows, which can't penetrate the Numenorean armor, but with adversaries of the even status?

Originally Posted by Gordis

Firstly the orcs didn't even know of Mordor's defeat(UT).
Then the Ring was a big secret known only to Sauron and the nazgul (UT).

Yeah. The whole Condor, Arnor, Mirkwood, Esgaroth and Rohan knew, and only a big army of orcs, sitting right in between, knew nothing. Where they were living? In the void?
First of it, 2 000 is not 20, to feed such amount of eaters for 2 years won't be enough of chancy robberies. You need a steady supply of a different kind of provision, which they might get from Mordor or from Sauron's supporters.
So, if the flow of provision has suddenly stopped, the first natural response would be to find out the cause of such hardship, and the second - to try to provide a supplement in some other way.
As we know many of so called servants of Sauron after his defeat "became subject to the heirs of Elendil"(Sil.) at the same time keeping hatred towards the Dunedain's kingdoms, and very likely they would help to a stranded in the mountains small army of orcs.
So, in both matters there is NO way that the Orcs have been totally unaware of what is going on, and the statement that they knew nothing doesn't hold the water.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Likely this detachment was there during the Siege of Barad Dur, and maybe it was commanded by one of the Nine

It says that the Ringwraith fled far East.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I doubt that Thranduil was in the conspiracy. Had they given him a ring it would have been another matter...

Too many suspects...

Originally Posted by Earniel

Perhaps not specifically in this thread, but it has been stated by our resident Elven Conspiracy theorists on previous occasions.

No, they were not in league. But in a kind of cooperation in some circumstances.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Then it would have happened by the East bank - and the Ring was found by the West Bank.

Not necessarily. What if Isildur crossed the river, then met his hunters, and was forced to flee back towards the river again.

To me, how Isildur's last moments played out is unanswerable, unless you wish to take the text at face value. There is very little evidence of what happened to Isildur after he fled. Considering that some of our evidence comes from our prime suspects, I would say all we have is: Isildur was killed (it doesn't have to be by arrows as his body wasn't found), the Ring ended up in the river (there are any number of ways this could have happened) and Isildur's sword & armor were separated from his body, ring case & crown (this could have been done by Isildur himself or his slayers, it is even possible that the ring case and crown were found separate from Isildur's body by Saruman). I wouldn't put much weight on what side of the river the Ring was found on as it could have been thrown (intentionally or unintentionally) or moved from one side of the river to the other by the water.

Though I have argued that Isildur likely removed the Ring before his death (because I think it is what any reasonable person would do in the situation and it makes it easier to explain Isildur's killing if it didn't happen as the text says), I'll admit he could have been wearing it until the end. There is too little evidence to say for certain one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue?

If you wish to say that things happened just as written, I can't really argue with you. There are no contradictions concerning Isildur's death elsewhere in Tolkien's writings that I am aware of. If you were to say that Tolkien's intent was that the Orcs killed him, I wouldn't argue with you; I would agree with you.

However, if you look at these writings from a historical point of view, you have to wonder what was the Elves' plan (by Elves, I am mostly referring to Galadriel and Elrond)? Would they really sit idly by while a Numenorean king was once again corrupted by Sauron? The evil of Pharazon and its repercussions were fresh in their minds. Would they wait for the Valar to take action? Certainly Galadriel and Elrond knew better than to trust to such an unlikely event.

Would they try to convince Isildur to give up the Ring willingly? But it would seem that this had already been attempted and attempted before the Ring had time to attach itself to Isildur's mind. Galadriel and Elrond knew he couldn't give up the Ring. They probably knew something about the fall of the Men who had become the Nazgul and certainly would remember that the Elves had failed to "find the strength" to destroy the rings themselves not too long before.

I would say again that Isildur was probably showing signs of what evil was to come. He told his son on the battlefield before his death that he had tried to bend the Ring to his will. Would this go unnoticed by the holders of the three rings? Would Isildur's intentions be nothing but good? He couldn't be attempting to control Sauron, since Sauron was unbodied at this time. So, attempting to control the One would probably mean attempting to control the other ringbearers, the Ring's original purpose. Also, consider the scroll that Gandalf read. In it, Isildur says the Ring is precious to him. This word wasn't chosen by accident. Tolkien was trying to show that Isildur had already begun to succumb to the Ring. I am not saying that Galadriel and Elrond would have likely seen this document, rather I am arguing that the state of mind that would lead Isildur to call the Ring precious was probably made apparent to them in other ways.

Ok, if we assume Isildur was killed just as it was written, what were the Elves' future plans concerning Isildur and the Ring? I don't think Tolkien told us, so perhaps one of our resident Elf defenders can give us a theory.