Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[HOBBIT]

I'm only partially repeating myself here - some new ideas (good new ideas and points) read it anyway. not going to be long and it may even be close to an IP level.

The bible is only loosely based in fact - havent read the new testament, but there were the kings mentioned in the old testament, etc. these things have been proved by archiologists - but the bible is not completely historically accurate - some dates are off, etc, and historically not all of the kings and other characters mentioned that actually existed were as powerful or played as big a part as the bible mentions. And, of course all that god stuff and unbelieveable stuff is not very accurate.


You can't possible prove that the bible is the word of god or that any god exists. You also cannot disprove this. You also can't prove or disprove that i have an invisible friend. You also can't prove or disprove the existance of multiple gods/goddesses or ghosts, or spirits, etc. Of course you all think that vampires and ghosts are rediculous? PROVE that they don't exist. Well I think that God is rediculous.

What I also do not like is how religious people are so arrogant. I'm sure that all of the christians in the topic honestly
believe that your faith is superior to all others and that you are right and that god loves you. How arrogant!! Jews believe their religion is right and so do Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, etc. Who are YOU to say that your way is the best.

Also, for example the christians here all "KNOW" that their religion is right. Jesus and God loves them sooo much and loves me too (hugs god). In their hearts, its all good. They have this feeling inside, so it must be right. Um, Jews "KNOW" that their religion is right. Muslims also "KNOW." Christians in this topic: how is YOUR feeling of being right SUPERIOR to these other feelings? They KNOW they are right IN THE SAME WAY that you KNOW you are right, right? You will probably say no, how so?

WHAT ABOUT ANCIENT RELIGIONS - they also "KNEW" that their religion was right and all others were wrong - that is why they conquered otehrs and forced them to practice their religion. Who are YOU to say that they were wrong and YOU are right? In what way is the idea of ONE god better than MANY. It is just as reasonable that there are many gods than there is only one. What about the Greeks, Romans (same basically as greeks though), Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Norse religion, native americans other peoples and religions. Are you saying that their beliefs were WRONG? Were their lives meaningless and without real truth? Puh-leaze!

THERE CANNOT BE MULTIPLE TRUTHS or what would be the point of being in one or the other? Make up your own religion, do whatever you want, believe what you want, follow whatever rituals you want - kind of defeats the whole purpose of it! If being a christian, jew, muslim, hindu, budhist, raelian makes no difference as to whether or not i get into heaven - then what is the point?

Also - christians disagree on a lot of things. Some in this topic say that all non-christians are going to hell! Others say that they don't believe that non-christians are automatically going to hell. Well which is it? THEY CAN"T BOTH BE RIGHT. Also, someone here said that Jews can still go to heaven - others say no. I would think that these things would not be up for debate - entrance into heaven being so important and all. If these things can be questioned, so can others.

It is also a matter of how you interpret things. Other christians believe that ufos guided moses through the desert, abducted elijah, did stuff to christ (not a christ expert). Are they wrong? Why, because YOU say so?

[HOBBIT]

Smaller continuation (read above post first)

Also, after talking to one of my former christian friends, christianity does not make much sense to me (no religions make much sense if you actually think about them).

The idea of original sin makes little sense to me. It did to her to and thats why she is now an atheist. You are born with sins and you need to be sprinkled with water? What?

Also - why do you need to repent? Why do you need to confess your sins to some preist? Isn't god all knowing and omnipotent? Why can't you just be sorry for what you did or/and say it outloud?

Plus, I also do not understand the whole christ dying for everyone thing. I'm not saying that it makes no sense, because I simply do not understand it. After someone explains it to me, THEN I will make fun of it. From what I understand of it, since God is all forgiving why couldn't/can't he just forgive everyone? How is some guy dying going to save anyone?

Resurection = doesnt make sense to me. If a tomb was empty - grave robbers. Jesus look-a-like. Clone maybe? :P


Also - why does everyone laugh when people suggest that aliens created humans? For christians - they believe the same thing! (just with aliens) That some intelligent being (or beings) created us. How is the raelian theory so rediculous? I"M NOT SAYING THAT I BELIEVE IN IT SO DONT JUMP ON ME. The bible says we were created in god's own image - cloning seems reasonable. What is god then? Chop liver? Why can't god be an alien? Maybe part of a race of aliens? It actually makes more sense than some things in the bible if you think about it. All this had to be simplified (as IP pointed out) to ancient peoples. All technology would be described as miracles and they would not really understand ships, cloning, lasers, etc.

If God is not an E.T., then what is it? Just a supreme being? Where did he come from? From nothingness? He magically created this world with a wand? If so, then the argument against evolution is really being HYPOCRITICAL (and in fact not true because evolution does not say that everything started from "nothing"). Truth is is that we just don't know everything.

Also - SOMEONE has said that evolution should not be taught in schools because it will confuse little kids - telling them as FACT that evolution is true and creation is not. How is this any different from when they are born ppl telling them that god is FACT and being taught it in church/temple and religious school. Who gave them a choice to believe??? No one. When presented with a better idea - kids with QUESTION their religion. They will assess WHICH MAKES MORE SENSE. Many today choose evolution. Are you really that afraid that after THINKING more will choose evolution?

small add-on: Atheists do NOT believe that their beliefs are superior. Basically for me, everyone has the right to BELEIVE WHATEVER THEY WANT with no one saying that their way of thinking is any better than anyone elses. Also, we must except THAT WE COULD BE WRONG.

Thats all i have to say for now. I could go on forever.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by HOBBIT


Also - why do you need to repent? Why do you need to confess your sins to some preist? Isn't god all knowing and omnipotent? Why can't you just be sorry for what you did or/and say it outloud?

the idea of confessing to a priest is a primarily Catholic belief...(I think Anglicans do this but I'm not sure about Orthodox Christians) anywho, in the Bible, Jesus gives the authority to His apostles to forgive sins in His name

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
....Rian has said that evolution should not be taught in schools ....

aaakkkk! Misquoted on 2 threads!!!!!

I repeat what I posted on the evolution thread:


*SIGH!*
Hobbit, I defy you to produce a quote where I said that! because I certainly don't believe that!! You just probably think I do, because of some other beliefs that I have (you know, the ones where I"m right and you're wrong.... )

I absolutely think the theory of evolution should be taught in schools!!! What I object to is when the word "theory" is dropped, either outright or by inference. The theory of evolution is a theory believed by many intelligent scientists! So of course it should be taught!! The theory of creation by intelligent design is also a theory believed by many intelligent scientists! So of course it should be taught!!

And THAT is my position

[Rían]

Now please don't pigeon-hole me and assign beliefs to me that I haven't stated just because I HAVE stated that I'm a Christian!!

[HOBBIT]

As I said in the other topic, i was mistaken. Not really misquoted twice - its the same exact thing posted twice. Someone said it in that topic (maybe had same or similiar avatar at the moment, i dunno). I only thought that because you seem VERY AGAINST EVOLUTION in the evolution topic. Anyone would get this impression from reading several of your posts (maybe if they had 50 hours to read ALL of them they wouldn't get that idea). again, i apologize.

I'll edit out "rian" and say someone.

How about all the other junk i wrote? :P

[HOBBIT]

check the other topic: the quote that i was replying to is one that you DID say:

And what is so devastating about that is that people are stripped of their value, and I hate that, because that is a lie. Young, impressionable students are taught at a very early age by authority figures that they are just the results of random chance and beneficial mutations. And believe me, they are laughed at if they disagree with this. Well, then, what does that mean? It means that there was no loving Creator that made them, individually and carefully and tenderly in their mother's wombs, as the Bible says. Does a result of chance events have any inherent value? No. And I object to that thought, because people ARE very valuable beings - they are of great worth! Every one of you who post here on Entmoot is an incredibly valuable being, both to me and to God. And THAT is why the morality values are put into our hearts - it is WRONG to lie, it is WRONG to steal, etc., BECAUSE it is WRONG to HARM a thing of great worth and beauty - a valuable person, made in God's image.

I dont want to completely repeat myself, so just check out what i said in the other topic. sorry for the confusion.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
check the other topic: the quote that i was replying to is one that you DID say: (brilliant post by RÃ*an quoted)

Yes, I agree with what I said there

I dont want to completely repeat myself, so just check out what i said in the other topic. sorry for the confusion.

OK, and thank you for the apology and the edit

How about all the other junk i wrote? :P

Well, yes, you DID write SOME junk .... (j/k, ok ), but also some good stuff. Again, I must defer longer posts until my in-laws leave tomorrow afternoon. But I WILL get to it (please nag/remind me if I forget, which I sometimes do if a family crisis pops up, which happens not infrequently with v. young kids...)

[Rían]

OK, my in-laws are staying an extra few days, but I actually have a bit of time to spend on the Moot now!!

I'll try to wrap up my thoughts on hell tonight, but first I"ll quick review the thread posts on the subject....

[Rían]

Here's some things that EG said during our discussion on hell (I'll add numbers for reference) :

some thoughts from EG

(1) Because if God were actively placing restrictions on our thoughts, then there would be no sin, right? In theory, anyway. So, the whole point of this is that we really do have free will and God requests/commands/whatever that we guide our thoughts in a certian direction and place the suggested restrictions. Leaves room for free will, that does. It's all about choice.

(2) because he said once that that's what he thought was the most important thing in the world: justice

(3) I might also note that I have a personal belief that any harm done to anyone will come back at you threefold.

(4) So, your scenario with the serial murderer/pedophile. The very idea of that makes my skin crawl, but for this reason: I cannot comprehend the kind of horror that would inflict. I don't want that happening to me, therefore I don't do it to others. Golden Rule of sorts. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse, and everyone deserves their life, once they are a semi-independant being (ok please no abortion debates here! ). So, yes, that person should be punished.

(5) However, human society has priority in the punishment as we have built a society on general principles of trying to make said society work. (NOT moral principles, in my view.) So that theoretical person should be punished by society for breaking the law which is there to protect the rights of citizens, thus making society work.

(6) I do not, however, believe that this person should be killed...rather, imprisoned and perhaps made to think on their actions.

(7) Something like that. I have my own personal beliefs in addition, but since those sorts of beliefs are, especially in our society where we have freedom of religion, our own and therefore the punishment should be left to society as a whole and not simply to God, karma, the devil, or whatever else may be out there.

OK, done editing this post. I'll start the discussion in my next post so this one won't be so long.

[Sheeana]

You know, Rian, there's this handy little thing called "Preview post". *runs away very fast*

[HOBBIT]

I agree with BOP (not sheeana). Why would you post an incomplete post?

[Rían]

Just to bug you guys!!!

No, really - what I do is: go back to beginning of subject (approx. my pg 61), find something I want to talk about, copy it, then make first post. Then go back and scan for next thing I want to talk about, copy it, and then do an Edit Post and add it into the post. Then keep going until I've gathered all the notes I want.

The reason I do this is because I've spent a great deal of time gathering quotes before, then had the computer crash before I hit the "Submit Reply" button, and I lost all my stuff!! Very irritating. This way, I just lose the most recent thing I copied if there's a crash.

Is there a better way? I didn't think "preview reply" saved a post, but maybe I"m wrong....

[Rían]

Oh- also, when I make posts like this, I can't just scroll down to get the notes I want, because what I want starts 5 pages back, and it's not scrollable-to! Only the last 20 posts or so are scrollable-to. If I can, I just scroll down and get the quotes, but here, I can't.

Please enlighten me if there's a better way!

[HOBBIT]

There is - you can just open a new window up and open the topic in that and go to whatever posts you want. Preview post doesn't save anything...

you could always write your topics in Word (or any word processor) if your computer crashing is a problem (and also if opening another internet window is a problem). That way, you can get all your quotes and stuff from the topic and then put it in the word document. When you are ready, just paste it all into a post and hit reply. If you save the document first, it periodically saves so if your computer crashes most of it (if not all) gets restored when you turn your computer back on.

[Ruinel]

ya know folks, the posts got so long in this thread that I went away for a while. I'm sure they have lot of great stuff in them but by the time I get about a third of the way down, I fall asleep. Can we say what we want to say without taking up 1/2 of the thread's page?

Subject: hell. My opinion? We're already there. LOL!

[Rían]

*deep breath* Here goes!

There's 2 major themes in those quotes of yours that I think are applicable to this subject - free will, and a feeling of abhorrance of harmful acts.

Free Will

I think the free will issue is a v. important one in a discussion of hell. It looks like from your (1) quote that you DO believe that we have free will. That will make this discussion shorter! I believe that, too. So I won't get into the "do we have free will thing" any more, except to say again that I think you summed it up REALLY well - "Because if God were actively placing restrictions on our thoughts, then there would be no sin, right?" If you follow that thought out, God would just simply stop our brain from acting when we started to contemplate doing something wrong. That is certainly NOT having free will. And as people DO do evil things, it's apparent that God does NOT stop our brain from planning them. So, it is apparent that God has chosen to allow us to exercise free will.

Now, another aspect of free will is: what are the implications of God giving us free will? One of them is that we might choose to do things against God's commands. IOW, we might choose to sin. (And just for reference, the Biblical term of "sin" means to "fall short" of God's standards. It doesn't necessarily mean only doing what we would consider really horrific things. One of God's standards is to not gossip, BTW! Not usually considered as bad as murder, but it IS one of the standards (and if you're honest, you'll admit that you feel bad when you do it!) Or at least you'll admit that you feel bad when OTHERS gossip about you, so there must be something harmful in it.)

So sinning means falling short of any of God's standards, which He, our creator, has set in place for our own good. He, as creator, knows how we "run best" - the machine analogy is a good one here, IMO. Like a highly-skilled automotive guy would make a wonderfully designed car - it would be logical to listen to him when he says "this car runs on xx octane gasoline with the following special additives..", instead of saying "oh, forget him! I didn't make the car, but I really think it will run great on jello!" So another aspect of the free will issue (again, I'm explaining Christian doctrine - some of you might disagree about some of the things that God has called harmful, but that is beside the point in this discussion) is that the things that God is asking us to choose to follow are good for us!

Will continue in next post... (so much for being short... but I'm having trouble getting time to post on these topics, so I"ll grab it while I can)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
ya know folks, the posts got so long in this thread that I went away for a while. I'm sure they have lot of great stuff in them but by the time I get about a third of the way down, I fall asleep. Can we say what we want to say without taking up 1/2 of the thread's page?

Well, EG doesn't seem to mind my long posts, and it's HER question I'm addressing now, so, sorry! I really want to do this subject justice, because it is a v. serious one.

You probably just need some extra rest after your big mudwrestling bout!

And thanks, Hobbit, for the suggestions - I don't like writing my posts in Word, because I don't get the Entmoot atmosphere (is that silly or what!!) - when I'm typing in that dinky little post window, I feel like I'm kinda with my Moot friends - but your idea of just opening a second window to grab the quotes from is a good one.

[Rían]

OK, I think the last thing on the topic of free will that I want to go over is: if God gave us free will, and if God knows everything, then wouldn't He know that we WOULD sin? Or if he doesn't know everything ahead of time, wouldn't He at least know that we MIGHT sin? And acc'd to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death (hell, separation from God). So why not give us a break and just say that there's no hell, since sometimes we really can't help ourselves, anyway!

One possible solution would be for God to have never even made us, but as C. S. Lewis says, "I shall not attempt to prove that to create was better than to not create: I am aware of no human scales in which such a portentous question can be weighed." Again, Christian doctrine says that God is all-good and God is all-wise, so this option really becomes a moot point, since we ARE here

I think that it CAN be understood that we have free will because love/obedience under compulsion is worthless.

I think it WOULD have been rather unfair if God had created us with the possibility of doing wrong and then just "sent us to hell" when we DID do wrong. However, that's NOT what God did. God's plan of creation included (1) free will, and (2) Jesus to pay the penalty of the sins that might come about thru our free will (and why there even IS a penalty will be discussed when I finally get to the justice/abhorrance of evil theme).

I believe that the Bible illustrates that God planned Jesus' act of atonement on the cross before the universe was even created. The idea of a substitutionary sacrifice for sins was pounded into the heads of the Israelites over and over. It's in Genesis, the first book of the Bible, and continues on thru the Old Testament, and is fulfilled in Jesus. So God, in effect, thought the "risk" of creating us with free will worthwhile (who wants to be around a robot?), and then because He is just, took on the penalty Himself (in the person of His Son, Jesus) for the possible outcomes of the risk (us choosing to sin). And we can choose to accept this, along with its implications (such as accepting "lordship" of Jesus and our proper and right and joyful position as created beings -IOW, we are NOT God ourselves!), which is what becoming a Christian means; or we can choose to not accept this.

Again, you may not believe this, but do you see how the doctrine itself explains away the apparent injustice that was outlined in my first paragraph of this post?

[Rían]

And just a quick note to IP about the "full of holes" thing -

*whaps IP over head for saying I agreed the Bible is full of holes* Please don't put words into my mouth! You may quote my posts, but don't make up things and say I said them!!!!

I've been thinking about your talk about truth, and I think that there can be different kinds of truth (hang on, read the whole post first!!)

You're talking about - hmm, perhaps I can say almost an "amount" kind of truth - if a subset of the truth is revealed, then it may not be considered to reflect the whole truth. I can see where certain subsets of a complex truth would give rise to erroneous ideas, and I can see what you're saying there.

But I think there is also a - hmm, can't really think of a term here, how about a homogenous truth? (Can anyone else think of a better term?) IOW, no matter how you slice it, or what size the slice is, it represents truth.

Perhaps the difference between a pudding-type dessert and a pie could illustrate this - with a pie, you can get crust only, and that would be an inaccurate (and not as yummy) representation of the dessert. With the pudding, however, no matter where you dip from, it's pudding! Do you see what I mean?

So an example would be me playing my harp. (and IP, am I right in thinking you're a pianist?) My daughter comes in and I say "This is pretty, isn't it!" and she says, "Yes, that's really pretty!" and starts dancing around. Now it IS pretty (when I don't mess up!) - that's the TRUTH! And dancing is one proper response to that truth.

But it is also the truth that I'm in the key of E minor, with all my F-strings sharped with the sharping levers, and all my B, E and A levers also set (because I tune my harp to the key of E flat, for various harpist-know reasons which I won't get into here unless you're interested). And it's also true that the first part is in the Lydian mode, and the second part is in the Aeolian mode (I just adore Irish music with all its wild modes!)

But I didn't tell her those truths - I just told her it was pretty. But it is still completely the truth that the music is pretty! And for her intellect, that's what she understands, and it's still completely true.

Does that make sense? (BTW, I'm here for discussion too, not "convincing" in the sense that I think you meant. If I convince someone of my viewpoint, it will be through honest discussion of what I truly believe, and their thinking it thru and deciding it makes sense for them. I don't do tricky stuff. I respect you guys too much for that, and also I think it's morally wrong. If I don't understand something, I won't fake an answer, I'll think it thru, and perhaps say I still don't understand it!)