LOTR = Typical Action Films?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cassius
Your seven times doesn't really matter and it isn't irrellevent. Those stats alone are the basis for how and why the movie was made the way it was.

Oh - I thought I was actually supposed to LIKE the film? I didn't know it was made that way to get me into the theater so I can go "Please just let me like it - I really have been waiting for this - and all I want is to like it." And then when the flight to the ford scene comes and the pippin and merry idiots appear on screen - I just have to say - damn this sucks.

Maybe if Bill Gates funded it with his whole fortune and decided to become Ghandi could it have been done for the book fans alone.

if Bill Gates made the movie - it would have dialog cutting out every so often or something. Microsoft can't even develop good software - I hardly except bill gates to be able to do a movie.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

As for bree and Jackson burping - well he's just a pig. I do have a problem with bree overall - because Jackson again stretched Tolkiens story. he made it into the cliched dark dreary town. It wasn't described like that in the books.

The weather and time that the scene took place in Bree does not mean Jackson stretched it. Look it was raining and it was night time, is that what makes it dark and dreary to you? I don't get it. Or because there were some ruff looking people in Bree. If so you have no argument with that point. Since all kinds of people could be at an inn. I just don't see how Jackson made the town different. Please explain.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


if Bill Gates made the movie - it would have dialog cutting out every so often or something. Microsoft can't even develop good software - I hardly except bill gates to be able to do a movie.

If Bill Gates roomed with Tolkein and got wind of the books he was writing..... oh too terrible to think...nnoo!!!! No! Don't Think it!

Lord of the Rings
by
Bill Gates
aka theif

[Cassius]

I think what Jackson was trying to display was how inhospitable the weather and how much a nice warm bed in an inn would be welcome after a long scary soujorn through the wilderness. Anywhere, even home is dreary when it is dark and rainy.

[Cassius]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
if Bill Gates made the movie - it would have dialog cutting out every so often or something. Microsoft can't even develop good software - I hardly except bill gates to be able to do a movie.

Neither do I, it just represents the sillyness and futility to even think that you can try and please the book fans alone without wasting money.

[thranduil]

waiting for any argument for Bree. ahem, cough, Jersey Devil, cough. Or any new scene that hasn't been debated to shreads.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by thranduil
The weather and time that the scene took place in Bree does not mean Jackson stretched it. Look it was raining and it was night time, is that what makes it dark and dreary to you? I don't get it. Or because there were some ruff looking people in Bree. If so you have no argument with that point. Since all kinds of people could be at an inn. I just don't see how Jackson made the town different. Please explain.

Well- for one thing it was NOT raining in the book.

It was dark and white stars were shining, when frodo and his companions came at last to the Greenway-crossing and drew near the village.

See - Jackson intensified the mood - different than what Tolkien had - just like he had intesified so many other things.

The hobbits rode on up the gentle slope, passing a few detached houses and drew up outside the inn....

Even from the outside the inn looked a pleasant house to familiar eyes. It had a front on the Road, and two wings running back on land partly cut out of the lower slopes of the hill, so that at the rear of the second-floor windows were level with the ground. There was a wide arch leading to a courtyard between the two wings, and the left under the arch there as a large doorway reached by a few broad stairs...

As they hesitated outside the gloom, someone began singing a merry song inside, and many cheerful voice joined loudly in the chorus.

No where does it describe the place as rainy or anything. Yes - it includes the word gloomy - it was night time. Also - the hobbits weren't use to see such large houses.

[Cassius]

Good point, and i can see where I am beaten on this subject which is off of the subject anyways.... but the town was built to look scary and oppressive in the movies. I know it didn't rain, but my point was and is that skipping all of the dark parts in the barrows, maybe he wished to intensify the feeling of unhappiness. I am not justifying it, I am giving it purpose. these are just my own theories so don't take it for Jackson gospel, if there is such a ridiculous thing.**coughBBisthepastorcough**

*note* I ,unlike BB, will accept when they are wrong and not continually say "I am right and you are wrong" even when I know I am wrong.

[thranduil]

Perfect argument! See in the book it also talks more about Bill Ferny and the Foreigner eyeing them closer. As well as after Frodo has the ring on. Everyone gets very upset, even Butterbur has a talk with Frodo about never doing anything like that again. The mood very well could be dark. As well as no news from Gandalf along with Merry missing. It is very dark and dreary in the books as well. I see nothing that implements Bree was all merry and happy except the quote you said about the people merrily singing inside. Since the a dark sky with some stars really doesn't lighten the mood much.

[Cassius]

Back on the subject. As I said earlier you need to define action in moviemaking. From what I know, the movies are not a bunch of "loosely connected action scenes" and the show does have a plot unlike "die hard" or "lethal weapon" which are both about get revenge and kill lots of stuff and blow up people every ten minutes. If it was just action then the movie would have been half as long and skipped the story. Gandalf would know karate, the hobbits would do matrix stuff, and the elves would dress like 10th century english punk rockers with 'tude.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Cassius

*note* I ,unlike BB, will accept when they are wrong and not continually say "I am right and you are wrong" even when I know I am wrong.

BB admits when he is wrong, you just don't see him admit being wrong much because in a debate it is almost unheard of for some to say " alright I give up. You got me."
where is BB anyways? Did he just feel he doesn't need to come because other people are defending the movies now? And don't say "ha ha, but he is here, cuz your here! ha, I'm so funny."

[Cassius]

I have to agree with that last part. We are all sick of being called one person and no I havn't seen BB admit he is wrong.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Cassius
I have to agree with that last part. We are all sick of being called one person and no I havn't seen BB admit he is wrong.

Maybe after 200 or so posts, then he goes right back to it in another thread. I'm not sure what he really believes, other than he thinks "purists are snob in their Ivory Towers" or some such nonsense. He desparately wants to wedge movie fans from book fans. Problem is people don't come here to be wedged. The truth is that there is every shade of grey on how people feel about the book versus the movie thing.

As to the issue of the fan base. You must remember that this book has been around a while and done very well without advertisement. People have taken their children to see it because they enjoyed it as children. Word of mouth and reputation. The buzz was there because of the fan base. Popularity works this way. Recognition and word of mouth combined with the movies media blitz makes a powerful statement. If the movies had been made about some unknown book, by some unknown director, with no major stars, do you really think anyone would be lining up on the first day, pushing the boxoffice through the roof? Almost everyone in line for The FotR had read the book. I glad others jumped on the bandwagon and enjoyed the movie and eventually the book.

This was far from a long shot, except making it as a trilogy, with PJ desersve kudos for pushing, as the story would make no sense in a short film. It was fortunate the project came up during the economic bubble or it might not have been made.

[thranduil]

[

The hobbits rode on up a gentle slope, passing a few detached houses, and drew up outside the inn.

why didn't you keep on going, since you didn't I will.

The houses looked large and strange to them. Sam stared up at the inn with its three storeys nad many windows, and felt his heart sink. He had imagined himself meeting giants taller than trees, and other creatures even more terrifying, some time or other in the course of his journey; but at the moment he was finding his first sight of Men and their tall houses quite enough, indeed too much for the dark end of a tiring day. he pictured black horses standing all saddled in the shadows of the inn-yard, and Black Riders peering out of dark upper windows.

Too me, at least. That dampens the mood a little bit. And I would even go as far to call the mood dark. Yes the hobbits relax inside for a small time in a sense of false comfort. Given to them by the cheeriness and warmth in the inn. But the comfort is taken from them suddenly when Frodo does a dissapearing act. Yes it is not altogether the atmoshpere of Bree that causes the darkness, but the actions that happen with Frodo/ ring/ merry/ aragorn/ Bill Ferny/ southener. etc. that happened inside of Bree.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by thranduil
Too me, at least. That dampens the mood a little bit. And I would even go as far to call the mood dark. Yes the hobbits relax inside for a small time in a sense of false comfort. Given to them by the cheeriness and warmth in the inn. But the comfort is taken from them suddenly when Frodo does a dissapearing act. Yes it is not altogether the atmoshpere of Bree that causes the darkness, but the actions that happen with Frodo/ ring/ merry/ aragorn/ Bill Ferny/ southener. etc. that happened inside of Bree.

Yes - but the black riders weren't there. There were other ways of doing it. No where do you get the feeling in the movie of black riders being around every corner. You only get a sense of a very rough town. There is a difference in what that paragraph describes and the overall mood that Jackson created.

Having a DESOLATE town with most people going to sleep - with shadows and hearing doors slam or hoofs in the distance or horses neighing would have generated the fear that is descibed by Tolkien. it would have given the sense that they were alone - walking into the unknown. he should have had them walking alone - with the hobbits straring up at the windows and the houses. But no - Jackson didn't do any of that. He went for rain and people lying drunk in the streets instead. The typical D&D rouffian town - with thieves and beggars.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No where do you get the feeling in the movie of black riders being around every corner.

What say you to this?

'Well, we can only hope the Riders won't come back yet,' said Frodo.

Frodo is referring to how fast Bill will get news to the riders. So untill now there really isn't much talk about Black Riders in Bree. (and this is quite a ways into the night.) Not even in the book does it give you a feeling of black riders around every corner. And after the hobbits turn in the movie depicts the Riders entering the Prancing Pony and shows what Tolkien said happened.

the windows had been forced open and were swinging , and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to peices

This is the only part that has any actual events in Prancing Pony done by the riders, which note, PJ included this section quite accurately.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by thranduil
What say you to this?

But they NEVER actually SAW the riders in Bree until Merry went out walking by himself. What I quoted and what you quoted was from the beginning of Bree when they were ENTERING the town. They didn't know the black riders ever came around until after talking to Butterbur AFTER they were in their room with Strider.

Frodo is referring to how fast Bill will get news to the riders. So untill now there really isn't much talk about Black Riders in Bree. (and this is quite a ways into the night.) Not even in the book does it give you a feeling of black riders around every corner. And after the hobbits turn in the movie depicts the Riders entering the Prancing Pony and shows what Tolkien said happened.

It does too give the feeling that black riders are hiding behind every corner in the VERY SAME quote you quoted in the previous post.

...he pictured black horses standing all saddled in the shadows of the inn-yard, and Black Riders peering out of dark upper windows.

Looks to me as if Sam is looking around and picturing black riders behind every corner. It could have been a very tenseful moment with them staring up at the tall buildings (sort of what I notice people from the midwest and other parts of the country doing when they see NY for the first time). They were alone walking the streets - knowing they were being followed. It was a tense moment in the book. Something that Jackson did NOT bring out on the screen.

This is the only part that has any actual events in Prancing Pony done by the riders, which note, PJ included this section quite accurately.

Bree could have had the mystery it had in the book and the fear the hobbits had walking into the unknown. As I said - instead jackson made it a typical D&D ruffian town with the cliched rain.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by thranduil

Frodo is referring to how fast Bill will get news to the riders. So untill now there really isn't much talk about Black Riders in Bree. (and this is quite a ways into the night.) Not even in the book does it give you a feeling of black riders around every corner. And after the hobbits turn in the movie depicts the Riders entering the Prancing Pony and shows what Tolkien said happened.

Believe me or not, I did take that into consideration before I posted and originally had "So untill now there really isn't much talk about Black Riders in Bree." (unless you count Sams Imagination) so on.........

I thought it was quite worthless keeping that in so I deleted it, obviously I was wrong.

My point was the hobbits were frightened when coming to Bree. (Sams thoughts) Next was that they had a false sense of comfort. They felt everything was great and we have no reason to feel that the ring wraiths are around every corner. (the reader doesn't even know) Because in the books it gives nothing except the merriness of the inn. That gives me no tension. The only tension there is to feel is from the events happening inside the inn. But if there were wraiths around everycorner, like you say it makes you feel. Then Bree is infact a place at the moment that is dark and dreary, with some fear and tension. And if you are thinking the book portrays it as riders around everycorner, then why say Bree is too dark in the movies. Or is it just because he didn't go with your, Everyone in Bree inside houses, no busling on the streets, why on earth wouldn't there be. Especially after they talk about all the people coming up there way to find homes.

So what you are saying is you would've liked Jackson to make a pleasant inn, clear sky, bright stars, lots and lots of singing and good times, (like you said it was) thus presenting a very uplifting atmosphere. And you wouldn't want it to be rainy like Jackson made it. cuz it just ruins the mood tolkein set huh?But at the very same time cause fear and tension with riders around every corner. "pyschological fear" like youve said, that is pretty scary. Hard to have it both ways JD.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by thranduil
My point was the hobbits were frightened when coming to Bree. (Sams thoughts) Next was that they had a false sense of comfort. They felt everything was great and we have no reason to feel that the ring wraiths are around every corner. (the reader doesn't even know) Because in the books it gives nothing except the merriness of the inn. That gives me no tension. The only tension there is to feel is from the events happening inside the inn. But if there were wraiths around everycorner, like you say it makes you feel. Then Bree is infact a place at the moment that is dark and dreary, with some fear and tension. And if you are thinking the book portrays it as riders around everycorner, then why say Bree is too dark in the movies. Or is it just because he didn't go with your, Everyone in Bree inside houses, no busling on the streets, why on earth wouldn't there be. Especially after they talk about all the people coming up there way to find homes.

No - as I said - he made Bree into the cliched D&D ruffian town including the very essential rain. The inn should have made Frodo relaxed - did it? No - he was uptight the entire time in the movie while at Bree. There was no need for the rain, there was no need for the people in the streets. The scene would have been much more powerful with them walking through deserted streets with the echo of their steps and distant noises. This would have lead Sam to picture black riders around every corner. I don't like the way Jackson did the scene. I think he cheapened it - as he cheapened most of the movie. It has absolutely none of the pyschological tension that is in the book. Bree ITSELF was not dirty or filthy or scary (as portrayed in the movie) - it was the imagination of the Hobbits that was making it scary. This is one of my biggest complaints with Jackson - he can't do psychological terror - he has to spoon feed the audience. He had to make big ugly people walking through bree and geering at the hobbits to bring out the fear. He either doesn't know how to do it any other way or else he just wants as much action as possible - "need to use those cool rain machines and have mud- lots of mud"

So what you are saying is you would've liked Jackson to make a pleasant inn, clear sky, bright stars, lots and lots of singing and good times, (like you said it was) thus presenting a very uplifting atmosphere. And you wouldn't want it to be rainy like Jackson made it. cuz it just ruins the mood tolkein set huh?But at the very same time cause fear and tension with riders around every corner. "pyschological fear" like youve said, that is pretty scary. Hard to have it both ways JD.

There is nothing wrong with showing the way Bree actually is then change it to the way bree looks to the hobbits and then changing the atmosphere to more comfortable after getting into the inn.

As they entered into Bree - he could have shown Bree as just a normal town and then demonstrated that Sams imagination was getting the best of him. Instead with the movie - the whole scene is dark - when they enter the inn - it is dark. Jackson did not build up the tension or anything of them walking through the streets. It's more like the hobbits were just disgusted by the sight of the filth and more concerned with being mugged than they were of black rider being behind every corner.

[thranduil]

I see "some" of your points reasonable. Basically Bree is like any other busy city. Bums, trash, its all there, the good and the bad. But I still don't see how you would have done it. make it pleasant, but riders everywhere, causing the most psychological terror. I just don't see it happening on screen. I encourage you to try and film such a scenario. No truly, I have done many LOTR scenes myself. I'm interested if you could transfer that. I understand if you dont want to try, to busy, I know its not easy. But seriously i would really like to see that.

Anyways this was good debating a new scene.(osgiliath, exorcism,wizard duel, flight to the ford.) Well think of another "new" part of the film to discuss.