Finrod and Amarie

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
There is a reason why Elves don't marry in times of war.

Yes, I just finished reading those parts in Morgoth's Ring. This was the reason given Finrod gave to Andreth that Aegnor left her and didn't marry her.

THis is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine.

*sigh... wishes Finrod would forsake his kin and take Ruinel away, but then, would Ruinel still have the same "respect" for Finrod in the morning?*

I think Finrod was alone in his griefs and troubled with the weight of duty and honor. It would have been nice to have shared this with someone he loved.

Oh, yes, if SGH reads this... it was the first thing I read in the book. Did you have any doubts?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Oh, yes, if SGH reads this... it was the first thing I read in the book. Did you have any doubts?

Same here.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Same here.

Finrod makes all other Elves and any Man, Hobbit, or Dwarf seem petty in comparison.

Just to nitpick, Finrod did not actually fight in the Kinslaying.

Yes, you are right. I think I got caught up in the moment. But the horror he must have experienced when coming up on the devistation of the battle afterwards. The grief he had for both sides, must have been overwhelming. Finarfin (his father) was so grieved that he turned around and went back to the pardon of the Valar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, yes, it would have been a very grievous thing to face.

Fact is that Finarfin did not forsake the journey then, but after the Doom of Mandos was spoken.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, yes, it would have been a very grievous thing to face.

Fact is that Finarfin did not forsake the journey then, but after the Doom of Mandos was spoken.

But not because of the Doom of Mandos... he was

being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe of Alqualonde....

Finrod and the other sons (and Galadriel) wouldn't leave the sons of Fingolfin. So, they went on into Exile with them. Fingolfin and his sons had come up on the fight and thought that the Teleri were attacking the Noldor (by mistake) and participated in the Kinslaying against the Teleri.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
But not because of the Doom of Mandos... he was

Finrod and the other sons (and Galadriel) wouldn't leave the sons of Fingolfin. So, they went on into Exile with them. Fingolfin and his sons had come up on the fight and thought that the Teleri were attacking the Noldor (by mistake) and participated in the Kinslaying against the Teleri.

That's correct.

[Ruinel]

So, back to the original start of this thread.

It says in Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, that Elves do not grow up the way the Children of Men do. It takes Elves 50 years to reach the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Therefore, maturity varied between 50 and 100 yrs. Most Elves married just after their 50th year. It also says that they chose their mates early in youth, and sometimes as children. So, this could be anywhere within 100 years, but usually within the first 50 years. But this was the norm and not all Elves followed this course. There were situations, as has already been posted (ie, war) in which the Elves pushed off marriage and children.

So, if Finrod and Amarie were (dare I say it) in love, then they couldn't have been in love for very long. The whole thing with Feanor took place suddenly. If they had followed the course of events for betrothed Elves they would have been married after 2 years (1 yr for betrothal, then another yr to set the wedding).

I can not recall, how old was Finrod when he left Aman?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, back to the original start of this thread.

It says in Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, that Elves do not grow up the way the Children of Men do. It takes Elves 50 years to reach the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Therefore, maturity varied between 50 and 100 yrs. Most Elves married just after their 50th year. It also says that they chose their mates early in youth, and sometimes as children. So, this could be anywhere within 100 years, but usually within the first 50 years. But this was the norm and not all Elves followed this course. There were situations, as has already been posted (ie, war) in which the Elves pushed off marriage and children.

So, if Finrod and Amarie were (dare I say it) in love, then they couldn't have been in love for very long. The whole thing with Feanor took place suddenly. If they had followed the course of events for betrothed Elves they would have been married after 2 years (1 yr for betrothal, then another yr to set the wedding).

I can not recall, how old was Finrod when he left Aman?

Nowhere that I know of does it state Finrod's actual age at the time of the Exile, other than to say that most all the Noldor that went were in the days of thier youth. I would estimate that he was of full stature, but still very young. Amarie may not have been an adult yet. We do not know. If Amarie was not of age then that could explain a couple of things. She was still under parental control and being Vanyarin, not permitted to join the exile. Also, that would explain why she and Finrod did not wed before the Exile.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
convenient!??! *ack* WHAT!?

Here's this Elf. And he leaves the most beautiful place that ever existed because of his LOYALTY to his kin. This tart makes some lame excuse that she's not allowed to go into Exile with him (probably because she'll break a friggin' nail or muss her hair or some lame excuse like that). He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right. Then Feanor (that rat) leaves him and the rest on the shores and they have to take a perilous journey across the ice. Again, he has to watch kin and friend die along THAT route. The perils, the tragedies, the bitter end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth!!!

Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?

And where, oh where is Amarie in all of this? Reports say she was busy getting her hair and nails done at Aman Couturier!!!

arrrrgh! Must ... get ... control!!!

... er I mean this is a serious matter. You have a nicely coloured way of looking at these things.

Originally posted by Ruinel
Besides, how could anyone NOT fall for him. *swoons*

I'll take that as a rethorical question and retain my answer. *throws a bucket of water over Ruinel*
However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy.

[Sister Golden Hair]

However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy.

I thought I said that. Um, I don't think he brooded though.

[Earniel]

Sorry I tend to repeat what's been said when I have little to add from myself.

I just noted that I used a bit of ambigious wording. When I said brooding I intended NO reference to chickens.

[Sister Golden Hair]

LOL!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Yes, I just finished reading those parts in Morgoth's Ring. This was the reason given Finrod gave to Andreth that Aegnor left her and didn't marry her.

We have different views on this Ruinel. I think if you include the rest of what Finrod said, it emphasizes my point:

This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine?

I think this says Aegnor could not live with Andreth, and still be loyal to his kin and his duty. And later Finrod says this:

Andreth, adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory, and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

So you see, I think Finrod had his fair memories, and I think he was content that his Amarie was safe in Aman. And he would probably hope to see her again, if so beyond his death.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
... er I mean this is a serious matter. You have a nicely coloured way of looking at these things.

The truth shall set us free.

Originally posted by Eärniel
[B*throws a bucket of water over Ruinel*
However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy. [/B]

Whoa! That was cold!!! (re: bucket of water)
Not "sad and brooding", rather: deep, thoughtful, focused, strong, brave, fierce, loyal, kind, passionate... *sigh* ... I can't say more, there are children reading these posts. (I wouldn't want to corrupt them in some way.)

Artanis: Love is more important than anything, even duty to kin and to parents. For example, Thingol denied Luthien's marriage to Beren. Yet, Luthien defied her father's ban and helped Beren in his quest for the Silmaril Thingol demanded as a bride-price.

Quite honestly, I do not think that Elves and Men should marry unless one or the other is able to choose a life as the other (example, the Elf chooses to be Mortal or the Mortal chooses to be Elf). This is because of the Customs of the Eldar being unable to choose another mate during the life of Arda. It seems to me that if Aegnor married Andreth she would be more like a dearly loved pet that dies within a short span of the master's life (I'm sure to get some flack on that one).

SGH: "in their youth" could mean what between 50 and 100 yrs or maybe older? I get the impression that when Elves choose their mates, that they are of about the same age... although it doesn't really say that does it. hmmmmm. I must think on this some more. But... I still do NOT like Amarie, a lot.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Whoa! That was cold!!! (re: bucket of water)
Not "sad and brooding", rather: deep, thoughtful, focused, strong, brave, fierce, loyal, kind, passionate... *sigh* ... I can't say more, there are children reading these posts. (I wouldn't want to corrupt them in some way.)

*hands Ruinel a towel*

Well he does strikes me as sad and brooding. Though maybe the other words you used fit him in some way. Although 'fierce'?

You know I wonder what you were going to say further that was unsuitable for children. After all... *puts on mithril mail and put heavy shield before her* ...we are talking about a fictional character. What could you know about a fictional character that would be unsuitable for kids? (Unless Tolkien published some 'adult' version of the Silmarillion of which I know nothing of.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Although 'fierce'?

Yes....

Originally posted by Eärniel
...we are talking about a fictional character.

... WHAT!!!!!!!!! Oh wait, you're right.

Originally posted by Eärniel
What could you know about a fictional character that would be unsuitable for kids? (Unless Tolkien published some 'adult' version of the Silmarillion of which I know nothing of.

The "adult version" is in my head. And I'm not saying anymore, I'd be removed from Entmoot.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Actually the Sil is an adult book, but what you two are discussing is there, you just have to read between the lines. Hey, that's what fanfic and Role play are made of, right?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Actually the Sil is an adult book, but what you two are discussing is there, you just have to read between the lines. Hey, that's what fanfic and Role play are made of, right?

I've never done the Role Play thing, not sure what fanfic is. I would be interested in "Role Play" is if I can "Roll in the Hay" with Finrod. roflol!!

I also found Morgoth's Ring to be somewhat "adult" especially when JRRT was talking about "Begetting" (I wanted to beget with Finrod).

[Earniel]

There are role plays in the Role Play Forum here at the 'moot. You can come and take a look if you like. Although there are many other ways to rola play. One of our role players even has as username of Finrod Felagund.

Fanfics are stories fans write using characters and worlds already created by an author. I believe the Tolkien Trail has some fan fictions too (though I'm not just sure where).

note to one's self: Why don't you finish whatever you're doing and start on Morgoth's ring?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
One of our role players even has as username of Finrod Felagund.
note to one's self: Why don't you finish whatever you're doing and start on Morgoth's ring?

He can not be as hot as the Finrod in my mind. It is not "humanly" possible. *suddenly... everyone rolls eyes and a collective sigh ensues ; Ruinel is branded "Finrod FanGirl" GASP!!!* And to think that I am constantly bashing the Legolas FanGirls aka Orlando Bloom FanGirls . How embarrassing!!! Perhaps, I am a bit overly zealous about Finrod. *takes a step back for better observation.* hmmm, yep, I think so, but I am justified in being so (surely, someone else thinks so also).
yes, you absolutely must finish whatever you are doing and read Morgoth's Ring.