The Anti-theist Thread

[BeardofPants]

Lol! I forgot about that.... I just re-watched the episode where Homer 'kills' Maude, albeit, unintentionally!

[FrodoFriend]

LOL! That's a good episode. But I like the one where Bart and Lisa think Ned killed Maude more. Burying the remains in the garden, heh heh heh . . .

[BeardofPants]

That's right! All those strategic shadows, and Ned's girly scream!

[FrodoFriend]

Ned: "I overwatered Maude's favorite plant! I am a murderer!"
Maude: *gasp*

[mirrille]

Sigh...
I don't understand this thing of taking perfectly good tofu and trying to force it to imitate turkeys, hot dogs, burgers, and whatever else. What a waste of good soy product! It doesn't even taste like tofu anymore. And don't get me started on the weird things they've done with soymilk.
Terrible.

Ack! The Wayfarer was here to distract us with weird logic based on wild made-up premises.
I was perfectly happy with the mammoths discussion. I like woolly mammoths. The same way 8 yr old boys like dinosaurs. Never liked dinosaurs myself. Yup. It was ice age type mammals for me!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by mirrille
Sigh...
I don't understand this thing of taking perfectly good tofu and trying to force it to imitate turkeys, hot dogs, burgers, and whatever else. What a waste of good soy product! It doesn't even taste like tofu anymore. And don't get me started on the weird things they've done with soymilk.
Terrible.

Ack! The Wayfarer was here to distract us with weird logic based on wild made-up premises.
I was perfectly happy with the mammoths discussion. I like woolly mammoths. The same way 8 yr old boys like dinosaurs. Never liked dinosaurs myself. Yup. It was ice age type mammals for me!

Yeah, I understand, but even vegetarians like me get a craving for american hotdogs! Well, actually, I just want to eat the mustard, but the vege-dog gives me an excuse....

[mirrille]

Actually, I just like real tofu and don't see why a person would eat tofu that doesn't taste like tofu.
But real hot dogs are nice too.

[jerseydevil]

I like meat. I am definitely a meat eater. Just too good to give up. I do of course eat other things though.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I like meat. I am definitely a meat eater. Just too good to give up. I do of course eat other things though.

Like Meat, Meat, Meat, and more Meat? I tell you, if you had to suffer through my mother's cooking, then you'd be vegetarian as well!

[jerseydevil]

My whole family (except my sister ) knows how to cook. But I do know what you mean - if I go over people's houses and they don't know how to cook, I feel like I should have brought a chain saw to cut my meat.

[BeardofPants]

That is if you managed to find any underneath the char!

[afro-elf]

since you guys are interested in it.

is there any theory on how animals (herbivores) survived across the ice sheet of the bering strait

or was it a matter of the water levels were lower so the strait "rose out of the sea" uncovering land which plants could grow

[afro-elf]

sorry it took so long to reply I couldn't find my distilled version


but this site talks about order from chaos and anthropic coindences

etc




http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/vjs/www/avoid/intel.html

[afro-elf]

to answer your questions on the 2nd law and the PROOFs of non theist concerning MANY things go here


http://www.talkorigins.org/

[RosieCotton]

Okay, I'll keep this short and sweet. Do I believe in God?

Yes.

Rosie

[Khadrane]

I believe in God. I'll try to keep it short and sweet, but I won't be able to.

1. Months, years and days are based on the sun or moon. Where did the week come from? Creation. God took six days to create the world and one day to rest.

2. Okay, so in the Big Bang Theory, all the matter in the universe was swirling around clockwise or counter-clockwise. Can't rememer which. Then it all exploded and flew into space. Don't the basic laws of physics say that all the planets, stars, etc. would be rotating the same way as the original mass? Then why do some planets rotate clockwise and some rotate counter-clockwise? If that didn't make sense, I sincerely apologize.

3. Evolution. Does that mean if I put a rock outside and wait a couple billion years it will turn into a human?

4. Where are the "missing links?" Still missing.

[afro-elf]

here is a site that yoy migh like

http://atheism.about.com/msubath_arg.htm





Khadrane


1) is a myth

2) NO

3)NO

4) NO


again go here and get the facts

http://www.talkorigins.org/

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Khadrane
I believe in God. I'll try to keep it short and sweet, but I won't be able to.

1. Months, years and days are based on the sun or moon. Where did the week come from? Creation. God took six days to create the world and one day to rest.

2. Okay, so in the Big Bang Theory, all the matter in the universe was swirling around clockwise or counter-clockwise. Can't rememer which. Then it all exploded and flew into space. Don't the basic laws of physics say that all the planets, stars, etc. would be rotating the same way as the original mass? Then why do some planets rotate clockwise and some rotate counter-clockwise? If that didn't make sense, I sincerely apologize.

3. Evolution. Does that mean if I put a rock outside and wait a couple billion years it will turn into a human?

4. Where are the "missing links?" Still missing.

Hmmm... Just a quick note before I fire off an answer. I know, that whatever I say is not going to suddenly fall on your head and cause you to believe, okay? But I'll just say this, wouldn't it be more amazing, if God created the earth, and all it's species with the ability to adapt and constantly change to their environment, as opposed to the 'fixity' that is currently proposed? My partner's grandad is pastor of a church, yet he believes in evolution. Why? Because he regards the fact that we can constantly change and adapt, and have in the past, as a miracle. Compare it to a computer program, if you will, are you more impressed with something that stays the same, or do you want to program for something that will convolute and change? Just a thought.

Now:

1) 'Week' is a man-made creation, there is earlier evidence of earlier cultures using the 'week', than traditional Judeo-Christian culture. Off the top of my head, Egyptian, Sumerian (I think) and Maya.

2) No, definately not.

3) Ditto. Life has to come from energy. There is no energy in rock. Clay maybe, lava perhaps. But not rock. And you'd have to wait a LONG time before any of this happened. It takes energy to select for survival fitness, and the rock ain't got it baby.

4) 'Missing link' is misleading. We are not trying to find a missing link that will suddenly explain everything. An analogy, you have a jig saw puzzle that you bought in a garage sale. When you get it home, you find that because of its age, some of the pieces are missing. So, when you put it together, you can see parts of the picture, but not the whole. That is what we are trying to do in the field of archaeology, and others. Try to understand the missing pieces. Sometimes, we are wrong, with our theories, and new pieces are found to counter-act current thought. Sometimes we are right. That's the fun, trying to guess, and work with our current knowledge, to understand our origins. Unfortunately, due to the sheer age of the Earth, there is just some information that is not going to be available to us. (Unless we build a time machine!). So, to conclude, there are no missing links per se, just missing information.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Wayfarer,

Why do you try to use logic to explain your faith. By definition faith defies logic. The apotheosis of order is a fallacy. Order does not require a motive to be order. The order that physics defines has very little bearing on human development. Theists require a simple answer to the unknown to assuage fear. It is critical to the theistic system to recruit believers to build credibility. Atheists deny god to expel the uncertainty. Anti-theists oppose organized religion based on the often less than holy human manifestations of theism. Religion is a like a poor translation of a dead language. If is more often than not corrupted by those who stand to benefit from it. I have left MBs with hate speakers hiding behide the bible. It has been an excuse for countless atrocities. I am glad you have found guidance and hope in your faith, but you might want to be less concerned with justifying and rationalizing it. No one can prove by dialog whether god exists or not.

You have an odd idea of faith.
Scratch that. You subscribe to a popular misconception.

Faith:
1)Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

My faith is not unreasoned. I have become convinced of the existance of God, and I shall hold this position until I'm given a reason to believe otherwise.

Order:
I shall answer you with a bit of commentary.

The Wayfarer was here to distract us with weird logic based on wild made-up premises.

Not that if my logic is based on wild made-up premises, it's not worth considering itself. Ordered Logic from Unordered Premises is Not Valid.

Mirille just used the first of my wild premises. So did FrodoFriend, BoP, and yourself.

My supposition was that any Order which can be shown to be the result of Disorder is invalid. Any thoughts that can be shown to result from Illogical causes can be discarded.

I highly doubt anyone will disagree here. So I won't waste more time in explainations.

Capsule sumarry: Unless there has always been some order, no order is valid. Therefore, human thought is the result of irrational causes, and should be discarded. Hence the dilemma.

Anyway. My reasoning was perfectly valid. Look it over again if you like.

Regarding the rest of the above quoted post, Cirdan is either completely mistaken or in complete agreement with me. I won't waste time going over it if it's not going to do any good.

Afro Elf. You now have my attention.

Having read through the entirity of your first link, I have concluded that it has absolutely nothing to do with my arguement. Interesting, true, but not particularly enlightening. I've heard it before. Heck, I believed it at one time.

Your second link was a site which I have visited in the past. I conclude that the vast majority of people simply believe what they wish to beleive. I.E. They're athiest because they don't want to believe in eternal life, or thier theist because they have been raised that way. Agree?

Your last link was interesting. It would quite useful if I had not already become convinced of the existance of God. Likewise, unless an Athiest is willing to be open minded about the existance of God, even the most reasonable arguements will be ignored.

One more thing. Would you concur that since Pantheism, even if wrong, was believed by the masses of Greece and Early Rome, and Monotheism, even if wrong, was held by the masses during the Middle Ages, it is not unreasonable to assume that Athiesm , even if false, is held by the masses today?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by afro-elf
sorry it took so long to reply I couldn't find my distilled version


but this site talks about order from chaos and anthropic coindences

etc




http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/vjs/www/avoid/intel.html

Thanks for the link, AE. Very interesting. Raised the issue of how, through physics (as viewed by theistic scientist), that god, as an active force could be implemented. Could the universe be centrally managed? Light would be a very slow method of implementing an act of god. It would then be inferred that everything contains built-in instructions; this would require falling back on fatalism and loss of free will. Since faith is a matter of free will, then belief systems are not neded since everything will work out as planned. Or do atoms react differently to true beleivers than to non-beleivers