Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!

[Lotesse]

I know, huh!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I love this theory, Brownjenkins, it feels right. But then, Landroval has a good point, too, that the desire for knowledge is in and of itself a desire that can be worked upon. BUT - how could a desire for knowledge be a type of desire that the Ring could use? It isn't a desire for a concrete or tangible thing, just - knowledge. Hmm. I'm going to ponder this some more for a while.

It seems to me that the Ring could take a desire a person had for knowledge and inflame that desire to the point that it became an obsession, that could drive one to strive to gain knowledge by any means. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I could definitely see that happening.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Did he though?

At what point?

Seems to me he did in a revisionist way.

I still think a form of that is implied , but in partial degree. Hence the mystery... and deliberate at that.

Read between the lines and a partial middle earth form or incarnation ,as it were, seems to me the best post-revisionist take...

best, BB

The letter is dated in 1953, so there is no revisionism here. It is consistent with other refferences by Tolkien to him in the Letters. Eru himself is consistently described as not inhabiting any part of Ea (letter #211) and will not enter Ea save at the end of it (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). In letter #144 Tolkien reffered to Bombadil as an intentional enigma; the only more specific description of him, which is out-of-story, is the "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.

[Olmer]

"spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.

Which brought us to the square one.
Who are the spirits, but Ainur that had descended after the creation of Arda, taking shapes according to the nature they loved?
Then it's understandable, why Goldberry said that "he is". Because Tom is maia, who fell in love with Arda and choose to live there instead in the Timeless Halls. Just like Melian has decided to stay and look over of a certain area - Doriath.
He is not man, elf, or some other creature, because he could take a shape of any. He is simply "IS".

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Who are the spirits, but Ainur that had descended after the creation of Arda, taking shapes according to the nature they loved?

So, still attempting to solve intended enigmas?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

So, still attempting to solve intended enigmas?

No. I'm just trying to come to a reasonable agreement with myself on this subject.

[nokom]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Tolkien dismissed such an idea:

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru

[nokom]

However... Eru in a way was meant to be the real god, in a fictional sense. Tolkien meant for it to be him, but in fiction if you understand me.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by nokom

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru

Bombadil could not have been the real God, as all the characters were fictional. Tolkien was evidently referring to him not being Eru.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by nokom

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru

They are one and the same.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

The letter is dated in 1953, so there is no revisionism here. It is consistent with other refferences by Tolkien to him in the Letters. Eru himself is consistently described as not inhabiting any part of Ea (letter #211) and will not enter Ea save at the end of it (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). In letter #144 Tolkien reffered to Bombadil as an intentional enigma; the only more specific description of him, which is out-of-story, is the "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.

..and when was it first written? ... between when and when technically, and when was it in mind before that?

But, Good Landroval, (whom i respect as a well read and intelligent mooter)

for me, it is not so much a historical proofing of X, Y or Z - but a genuine open debate about what was meant at the time of writing , ... that which still remains in the original text, which might have meant or been played with subsequently either ad hoc or to attempt to reconcile later works ...

to me, that is much the more interesting question.

I, personally am much more interested, given the numerous and really quite powerful ambiguities for Tom, in given what was the original concept, allbeit a rough sketch later somewhat obscurely defined, to fit into his creationist history and world - a scope that both is totally admirable, but not without ambiguity ...

I value your own opinion and thoughts rather than mere letters or responses - and i mean that in a good and respectful way.

Best, BB

[Landroval]

If I were to venture in a speculation, I would say Tom appeared in Arda after it was created, being an exception to both the Children of Eru and the Ainur. A sort of a special observer/envoy.

To return to the letter #144:

He is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function... both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive.

Interesting that Tom is compared to Rivendell; there dwells the greates loremaster of Middle Earth at the time. Another interesting parallel is that both Tom and Elrond are healers in their own way (Tom at least of land). The elves are also said to have the subcreative faculties in the highest degree among all mortals, and the peculiarity of subcreation/Art is its lack of possessiveness, which also seems to define Tom as well. While both the Elves and Tom enjoy lore, the Elves seem to be the closest to perfection in creating, and Tom seems to be closest to perfection in attitude (a chapter where the elves lack, since they can be seduced to a kind of minor Melkorism, to be their own masters in Arda - cf. the Athrabeth). Just as Men/Elves represent the two facets of Mortality (letter #181), Elves/Tom may represent the two facets of the perfect archetype.

[Rían]

interesting thought, Landroval! (creating/attitude)

[Jon S.]

Sometimes an enigma is simply that. I don't believe Tolkien knew for sure about Bombadil, either!

[Tom_Bombadil]

In light of my name on here I feel I have to get into this!

I think Tolkien left Bombadil deliberately vague, so this very thing would happen...people talking about it years later. He is enigmatic to say the least. I certainly don't think he's a manifestation of Eru. From what I've read I can't see that as Illuvatar's style, he didn't interfere, unless in dire circumstances...like when Manwe called upon him; when Ar pharazon and his men had just stepped onto the shores of Valinor. Then boy did he step in!!

My opinion is is that Bombadil is a most ancient kind of nature spirit, possibly maia, but I don't think so. Maybe he's just a literary device used by Tolkien to mark the last chapter before the real adventure and danger begins. A kind of retreat for the reader. If the later story becomes too dark; Can cast your mind back to a place where a jolly, eccentric being is total master, unconquerable, unaffected even by the rings power and glean solace from that. I don't know I'm just rambling. Bombadil is certainly a most fascinating creature.

I agree with what others said earlier....The ring wouldn't work on Bombadil because "he's his own master", his will unconquerable, and he doesn't desire power, he's content within his own little realm....the only reason the ring would work on Gandalf is because he desires power....power to defeat Sauron, and it would use that desire to corrupt even he.

To sum up...I think there's a definite nature connection with Bombadil and he's unique in that respect...a personification of nature itself possibly. Tolkien was a well known nature lover...in fact "the scouring of the shire" chapter in LOTR was a reflection of reality, what he saw as the brutal industrialization of England...destroying wildlife and countryside in the name of production.

Whatever the case....Bombadil, to me, is one of the most interesting characters in all of Tolkien's works and the fact this post exists is a testament to that.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Interesting topic and fine debate. I think I have solved the mystery, at least for those who want it to be solved: Tom is the first song of the Ainur, or rather a remnant of it. That´s because: He had no power to oppose Sauron, but the Ring had no power over him. And the second song of Iluvatar was created to resist the cacophony of Melkor. And the fight against the darkness has been like that song; first it was weak and not even loud, but it didn´t fail and fade, and grew stronger and even and kept on despite the evil. And it merged with the First one, and thus, even with Treebeard, he (Tom) can be said to have been there before him. Other questions?

[bropous]

Not bad, N.E.L.

However, I took Bombadil to be unaffected by The Ring because Sauron came to dark power far after Bombadil was already walking the world, and that Bombadil, as a creature of Middle-Earth before the first Valinorean boot touched Middle-Earth, did not feel the effects of Suaron's evil.

However, mayhaps a clue can be found in my signature line:

"...[T]he primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies...".

When you look at the true symbolism of The Ring itself, lust for power, you realize that Bombadil had no lust for any power of any sort, and therefore was untouched by its call to cause its owner to drive for great and unyielding power over others, by force or by mechanism. This is why The Ring would have been sp dang dangerous in the hands of Olorin...even with his good intentions, The Ring would have driven him to gain power through mechanations or force, even after defeating Sauron. Olorin may have become as powerful as old Morgoth hissef.

[Jon S.]

Bombadil may not have desired power and control over others but it is patently in contradiction to what Tolkien actually wrote in the LOTR to say it was meaningless to him. Tom very definitely exercised power and control over Old Man Willow to free the hobbits and it was quite meaningful to him to do so.

[Ingwe]

I've always enjoyed the debate concerning Tom Bombadil. When I saw this as the recent post on this forum, I knew I had to post.


At first, upon reading about Tom Bombadil, I wanted to know his nature. I asked myself, is this guy a man, an Elf, a Maia, a Valar, or God himself. And of course I eventually was caught in the literary meaning of Bombadil.


I don't see very many authors out there who actually use an element like Tom Bombadil: something that is a complete mystery to even the author. That's just absolutely wonderful to see something in a story that even the author is not aware of its nature.

Why the Ring has no power on him is also a mystery, but the explanations I see here are pretty good. Perhaps if Tom wanted to, the Ring could have an affect on him. Tom wasn't affected though by items created by nature for he may have been the (idea of) nature itself.

I read before though that since Tom is a figure of nature, that if Sauron (or Morgoth) would have taken the world for themselves that even Tom would fade with it - that is if all nature was bound by one (Sauron or Morgoth).

Tom Bombadil is a mystery and Tom himself represents the mystery of the future. If Sauron or Morgoth had taken the Earth for themselves, the mystery of the future would be broken, for the future would be the same as the present: no resistance to evil would remain and Morgoth or Sauron's rule of the Earth would be complete. The future would be bound to Morgoth's or Sauron's control and absolute dominion over it. The mystery, thus broken, would break the nature of...nature itself. The nature is to be open-ended, to have many on Earth with the free will to be able to change the course of the future.

So why couldn't it go the other way? Why did Sauron's destruction not end Tom Bombadil (presumably)? If Earth becomes under the dominion of the race of men, the nature of the future may seem less mysterious. Well, the future still remained mysterious because there's no one person who completely dominates the entirety of nature (as Sauron could have if he had gotten the ring and destroyed the free peoples of Middle Earth). The mystery of the future never was broken, even up to this day, which is encouraging to say the least.

Of course, with a mysterious future, it is obvious that there is still going to be some evil, but still some good. A little of both. The Elves fought for good (*cough* most of the time, they kinda messed it up in the First Age though). Orcs, Sauron, Morgoth, etc all fought for evil and power. The Dwarves were the craftsmen who made the tools needed to either fight for good or for evil. And there were the Men, the Humans. Their intentions were never clear, not even to Morgoth or Sauron. They feared men because they had the element of surprise. They knew men could serve them, but they also knew they could turn on you in a second and surprise you. Morgoth aimed for complete and total domination of nature itself and that included the outcome of the future. Seeing that a race had now been created that can either oppose or fight that concept, Morgoth didn't know what to expect.

So it was up to humans to eventually gain control of the world. One race ruling the planet isn't quite as bad as one evil person who has control over everything that happens. Humans are corruptible, easily corruptible. But they are also quick to fight for what they consider to be good. All have different intentions, and each one can change the future in even the smallest ways but put a lot of those 'small' changes together and you get something that somehow changes the future irrevocably.

The Elves have the same ability to a certain degree: to choose to fight for their friends or choose to fight for power. The Children of Illuvatar were ultimately favored by the Valar, as they were the ones whose small changes would affect the future in some way. If those races were destroyed and evil allowed to rule completely, the future would no longer have the mystery nature needs. The only part of nature that would still exist of course, is Earth's limited lifespan itself, which would somehow eventually end.

Tom himself represented the intentions of Eru and the Valar: to not interfere with life on Earth, unless at the utmost end of need. If the Valar had simply destroyed Beleriand in the beginning, it would have not given humans an opportunity to show their great worth, and with that would come a sense of complacency among the free peoples of Middle Earth. They would believe that the Valar would come to the rescue all the time so they would figure, why do anything at all now? In a way, it would not give Elves and Men the ability to be independent. And the nature of the Elves themselves was to leave the mortal lands eventually. It was sort of like a calling back home. The first summonings of the Elves didn't quite work the way the Valar had intended, so the last summoning was more or less the instilling of "this calling" that the Elves felt, especially later on in the Third Age. And this would eventually give the race of Men the independence that the Valar wished to entrust them with.

So fortunately, all went as planned. The Elves (most of them) would return to Valinor and humans would be free from magical influences such as Gandalf, giant eagles, Sauron, the Ring, Elves, etc. The Fourth Age was to be the age in which the last powers of Earth would diminish and subsequently vanish.

Though the Music of the Ainur was tainted through Morgoth, it was still all a part of Eru Illuvatar's plan. If there was no good or evil at all, if one commanded over all, the future would be set in stone, never to change. Illuvatar was unbiased. Only when nature itself was threatened would he act. Nature itself was threatened a number of times earlier on. The Children of Illuvatar were being hunted to the last by Morgoth in the dark times. Illuvatar only acted when one power was about to rule completely.

The Powers wanted more than anything to preserve the mystery of the future, and Tom represents that part of the song. Tolkien making Tom Bombadil a mystery is sort of like what the Valar did to protect the open-ended future of Arda and what lies beyond. It shows that even the Valar, may I say, even Illuvatar himself, didn't know what the outcome of the future would be. That was his intention: to create something that even he did not know the ends to. "Even the very wise cannot see all ends" - a quote by Gandalf. I'm personally glad that no one can see all ends as that would defeat the purpose of existence. Someone may be able to see part of the future, but even that prediction cannot be certain.

Good: Life, freedom, free will, friendship, love, joy.
Evil: Death, power, dominion, violence, rage, anger, sorrow.

Those two, good and evil, need each other. Without one or the other, there would be no definition for the aspects of the side that remained. If everyone was immortal and no one could die no matter what happened, then the word "life" would cease to have any meaning. Existence would become complacency and would totally be given a constant status, defeating nature as we know it. Tom would probably like the phrase, "change is the only constant in nature". If that constant could be changed, everything would lose meaning. Time would not be quite right and up would be down, heck, up could become left or right. Existence would be nullified.

God: Illuvatar, the unbiased creator of everything. Never had a beginning, will never have an end.
Nature: The source of existence: the only constant being change. Can only be defeated if change doesn't happen anymore.
Tom: The living representative of nature, and representative of God's true plans (that shall never be revealed, even to God, until an event has come to pass). (in my mind)
Valar: The builders, the singers, the Powers. Their goal is/should be to preserve nature by getting the Children of Illuvatar off their feet so that they can have dominion over a world ruled by the free will of its people, never completely ruled and commanded by the design of one person.
Morgoth: Source of evil, was just the other element that (believe it or not) was needed to make existence proceed. Through his evil, the world's citizens learned how to make war. The people learned about torment, cruelty, war, death, suffering, and sorrow. Those seeds planted by Morgoth would continue long after Morgoth's banishment from the world, and continues long after Sauron's destruction. Now, from those seeds planted, evil will continue in some way in all people. But the good designed by the Powers will remain as well. So now we have no supreme source of evil. Evil has its origins with Morgoth's acts, but now it exists in everyone.

So we have someone who is basically an idea, a representative of nature perhaps. He may or may not represent nature, because Tom will always be a complete mystery, just as he was to Tolkien. We can be thankful that such a mystery exists, because, as Bombadil himself said,

Whatever the case....Bombadil, to me, is one of the most interesting characters in all of Tolkien's works and the fact this post exists is a testament to that.

Very true words.

[durinsbane2244]

Wow. That was...incredibly long and well thought out. High five.