Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Lotesse]

That's a cool analogy. For some reason, I was instantly reminded of a scene in the movie Bound, from 1996, with Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon. Now usually Tilly irritates me and Gina Gershon straight up annoys, she kind of grosses me out, but in this movie they both worked really well. Oh, sorry, am I getting off track here?

Why does this have to be turned into another thread where gays and bisexuals have to explain themselves and argue the "rights and wrongs" of being gay or bi with right-wing Christian haters and even homophobes? I thought this could be a thread discussing things like Katya and Gaffer talked about the other day, or what Nurvi and Shah and Lady M and Chrys and all the others here on Entmoot who are either gay or bi, or have questions and would like to talk, not convert or condemn or ARGUE ceaselessly about. Is the Teacup Cafe the only General Message thread extant on Entmoot wherein people can talk without arguing points and being negative?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Well technically this is a forum for debate... but that doesn't mean the arguments have to be negative.

[katya]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

...
Now, if I seriously had trouble refraining from tearing off repairman's clothing and having sex with them, then I would be THRILLED that there's a group out there that has people like me who have sexual urges that want to come out in ways that they, PERSONALLY, don't think are appropriate. I would jump at the opportunity to join such a group, and discuss with people like myself the different ways that they have found helpful to control those urges and express them in ways that they think are good and right. I'm not naively saying that all those urges will disappear; but I AM saying that there are ways to control those urges and help change the direction that they find their outlet.
...

Good post, RÃ*an. Reminds me of that episode of X-Files with the guy who had this kind of uncontrollable urge, only it was to eat people`s brains. He was fighting really hard against it. I felt bad for him. I just don`t think homosexuallity is wrong in the first place but that`s just a difference of opinion.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Rian, I see what you're going with your story. I agree with the point of your story, that you shouldn't necessarily follow all your desires, and we have a choice to follow this or not.

However, I think our sexuality, the basis of our desires, is neither right nor wrong. It's the choices we make that can be right or wrong.

Let's say I'm a lesbian, and married to my partner (a women, of course). Then one day I hire an electrician to install some wiring in our basement. My wife is at work, and the electrician (a very attractive woman) and I are alone in the house.

It would be wrong of me to proposition her because I'm married, and I'd be cheating on my wife and causing her a great deal of hurt. It's not wrong of me to have this desire for the electrician, or to be a lesbian.

What you do with your sexuality should be entirely up to you And same for me! So my point is that for people who WANT to do something different with how they express their sexuality, for WHATEVER reason THEY think is valid, specifically (in this case) change from expressing it in homosexual relationships to expressing it within a man/woman marriage, this group is great for them.

I very often hear from the pro-homosexual side that people should be able to do what they want with their sexuality, and then I see many on that side vehemently protest against people who are doing EXACTLY THAT, but just in a way that the pro-homosexuals don't like

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Well technically this is a forum for debate... but that doesn't mean the arguments have to be negative.

IMO, it's an intelligent, thoughtful, insightful discussion among Entmoot friends who have different opinions, but are bigger than that and CAN be friends. I love those types of discussions and so do many other people, since those types of threads are usually quite popular. And I think the angry name-calling that just occurred was totally uncalled-for and certainly not constructive. We were doing just fine. I hope it gets edited out.

Originally Posted by Maggie

And wouldn't your desire to change based on that verse have been influenced by the parts of your culture that had conditioned you to take everything in the Bible as truth?

I think there are people of ALL beliefs (including atheists) who are conditioned to accept various things as true. However, I would hope that that isn't true of anyone here.

Personally, my beliefs about the worldview that I think is correct (i.e., best reflects what I see around me and matches best with the information that I have available) are NOT a matter of conditioning. They're the result of mature, adult deliberation backed up by hours and hours and HOURS of research and thought. Sure, I grew up going to church (but not a Christian), but that doesn't matter - people grow up in the church and end up atheists, and people grow up atheists and end up in a church.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by katya

Good post, RÃ*an. Reminds me of that episode of X-Files with the guy who had this kind of uncontrollable urge, only it was to eat people`s brains. He was fighting really hard against it. I felt bad for him. I just don`t think homosexuallity is wrong in the first place but that`s just a difference of opinion.

Yeah, I think it boils down to what people think is right or wrong to DO with the urges (for lack of a better word) that they have. I've said it a gazillion times, but I"ll repeat it again - I think each person should put a lot of careful thought into what they think is right and wrong (and why they think this) and then do what they, PERSONALLY, think is right. And I think it is very hypocritical of people to be intolerant towards people who are trying to do just that in their own PERSONAL lives. It should be their own choice.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Is the Teacup Cafe the only General Message thread extant on Entmoot wherein people can talk without arguing points and being negative?

Basically the TC is for general conversations and chit chat.
Topic specific threads can and do have points of view but name calling; baiting, flaming, etc. are not permitted.

IMO this topic thread is covering a very wide subject matter in a reasonable way. Different opinions are just that.

Remember to never attack the poster.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

They're the result of mature, adult deliberation backed up by hours and hours and HOURS of research and thought. Sure, I grew up going to church (but not a Christian), but that doesn't matter - people grow up in the church and end up atheists, and people grow up atheists and end up in a church.

I don't know... I think you're underestimating the power that the way one grew up can have on the direction of later mature deliberation and research.

Especially in regards to religious beliefs. Religion when learned young is a difficult habit to break, I haven't been to church except for the occainsional holiday and funerals in years, intellectually I disagree with nearly everything in the dogma I grew up with. Yet when asked I still identify myself as catholic, it's still a part of the way I think and behave.

And I have to go to class now.

More later.

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yeah, I think it boils down to what people think is right or wrong to DO with the urges (for lack of a better word) that they have. I've said it a gazillion times, but I"ll repeat it again - I think each person should put a lot of careful thought into what they think is right and wrong (and why they think this) and then do what they, PERSONALLY, think is right. And I think it is very hypocritical of people to be intolerant towards people who are trying to do just that in their own PERSONAL lives. It should be their own choice.

Yay! *Hug!* I agree with above statement.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't buy IR's claim that all the hundreds of thousands of homosexuals that have become heterosexual and now live happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure and desire are just in denial

What “hundreds of thousands� of homosexuals living “happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure� are you referring to exactly? Where do you get these numbers and this kind of qualification of these individuals? Most studies have found that the percentage of individuals who actually state they no longer feel any homosexual feelings and instead desire the opposite sex after this “curing� program is nearly 0%.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sane

Yay! *Hug!* I agree with above statement.

Yay! *hugs back*
So would you support a person who had had homosexual relationships and decided that they, personally, wanted to switch to having heterosexual relationships (even though the homosexual urges are still there) and wanted to go to the Exodus group for help and support?

Originally Posted by IRex

What “hundreds of thousands� of homosexuals living “happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure� are you referring to exactly? Where do you get these numbers and this kind of qualification of these individuals? Most studies have found that the percentage of individuals who actually state they no longer feel any homosexual feelings and instead desire the opposite sex after this “curing� program is nearly 0%.

I don't think there's that many, either, but I'd be interested in seeing some stats.
And IMO it's irrelevant if the feelings are still there or not. As Dumbledore said, it's a person's actions that define them. Although I think that the homosexual feelings could be lessened significantly and heterosexual feelings increased significantly, I doubt that the homosexual feelings would entirely go away, in most cases. But that's not the important thing, IMO.

If, for whatever reason, I became firmly convinced that heterosexual relations were wrong, then I would strive to switch to homosexual relations and/or abstain from heterosexual relations, REGARDLESS of my feelings. (of course, I"m not saying this is a light decision - I'm sure it's not done lightly at ALL by the people that go to Exodus for support/help changing their behaviors.)

I don't think people should be mindless slaves to their feelings. For example, I like to be lazy. I REEEEEELY like to be lazy. But since I think that's wrong, I strive against it. I give into it a lot, too, but the point is that BECAUSE I think laziness is wrong, and cheerful, diligent work (when it's time to work; not all the time!) is good, then I work to develop what I think is good.

The thing that bothers me about the Exodus vandalism is that people are trying to stop/intimidate OTHER people from doing what they think is right.

[The last sane person]

If that is what they wanted to, it is their decision. I will upport them either way. If it made them happy, I would gladly support them. Though personally, I dont think I need to go to any support group. I have My Lady as my support.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Why does this have to be turned into another thread where gays and bisexuals have to explain themselves and argue the "rights and wrongs" of being gay or bi ...

I don't think that gays and bisexuals are having to explain themselves and argue here. I think we're holding a discussion among friends.

...with right-wing Christian haters and even homophobes?

SInce you're referring to this thread specifically, then I assume you're saying that some Mooters on this thread are "right-wing Christian haters" and "homophobes". Is that right? If so, could you please say who you think they are, so people can examine the posts of these Mooters and look for proof of hatred and fear towards homosexuals?

IMO, you're wrong that there are haters and homophobes on this thread, so I'm calling you on it and asking you for evidence to support your claim.

I thought this could be a thread discussing things like Katya and Gaffer talked about the other day, or what Nurvi and Shah and Lady M and Chrys and all the others here on Entmoot who are either gay or bi, or have questions and would like to talk, not convert or condemn or ARGUE ceaselessly about. Is the Teacup Cafe the only General Message thread extant on Entmoot wherein people can talk without arguing points and being negative?

No one is forced to be on this thread If they're on it, it's because they're interested in being on it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

If that is what they wanted to, it is their decision. I will upport them either way. If it made them happy, I would gladly support them. Though personally, I dont think I need to go to any support group. I have My Lady as my support.

yeah, support groups aren't for everyone, but they're a huge help for some people. I'm glad to hear that you would support the people going to Exodus, though.

[The last sane person]

I sure as hell wouldn't tear them down! That is just plain silly!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And IMO it's irrelevant if the feelings are still there or not. As Dumbledore said, it's a person's actions that define them. Although I think that the homosexual feelings could be lessened significantly and heterosexual feelings increased significantly, I doubt that the homosexual feelings would entirely go away, in most cases. But that's not the important thing, IMO.

Well but that’s a pretty loose definition of “curing� you have there. Basically you are saying anyone who doesn’t have homosexual sex is not homosexual. Refraining from sex certainly doesn’t mean they don’t still have tremendous feelings of lust toward others of the same sex and issues with trying to act heterosexual. Nor does it mean that they aren’t still racked with guilt or depression because of their INNER state fighting against what their society/upbringing/family/church tells them is right and wrong.

If, for whatever reason, I became firmly convinced that heterosexual relations were wrong, then I would strive to switch to homosexual relations and/or abstain from heterosexual relations, REGARDLESS of my feelings.

But again this wouldn’t be a “cure� or a conversion. This would simply be trying to resist your natural impulses for your own reasons. This reminds me of alcoholics anonymous then who acknowledge that they always remain alcoholics until death but may never touch another drink again.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

I don't know... I think you're underestimating the power that the way one grew up can have on the direction of later mature deliberation and research.

Especially in regards to religious beliefs. Religion when learned young is a difficult habit to break, I haven't been to church except for the occainsional holiday and funerals in years, intellectually I disagree with nearly everything in the dogma I grew up with. Yet when asked I still identify myself as catholic, it's still a part of the way I think and behave.

I don't know ...

(starting the same way you did - I like to start that way sometimes - to me, it shows that the thought under consideration is currently under active consideration and the person is open to looking at it if new info is being received ... anyway, what a random ramble!)

I think it can be dangerous to dismiss groups as being conditioned without specific points that can be observed and analyzed ... it seems like you're willing to dismiss "religious people" in general as being brainwashed. If that's so, are YOU brainwashed? since you admit to having a religious background?

I think a higher percentage of non-religious people are conditioned than religious people, at least here in the USA. I can't tell you how many non-religious people I've found that are ENTIRELY unable to defend their worldview with any data or logical argument whatsoever, but that's another discussion ...

And you noted that despite your Catholic background, "intellectually I disagree with nearly everything in the dogma I grew up with. Yet when asked I still identify myself as catholic, it's still a part of the way I think and behave". That's the point - what I"m talking about here is NOT the way I think and behave automatically. It's what I have analyzed and thought about - like the part of you that intellectually disagrees with your background.

Obviously, you don't have to reject your background to be right. It is clear that EITHER atheists are right OR people that think there is a god/gods are right, REGARDLESS of who has rejected their background or who has not rejected their background.

I think before dismissing "religious" people (or ANY person) you need to look at that individual person and see what they're like, and whether or not they can put forth reasons behind their beliefs (not just "religious" beliefs - ANY beliefs).

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Well but that’s a pretty loose definition of “curing� you have there.

I didn't claim that these people were "cured".

My point was that if people want to change their behavior for whatever reason they, personally, find valid, even if it goes against the urges they have, then they should not be intimidated/hindered. I think people should make their own choices how they want to behave.

Basically you are saying anyone who doesn’t have homosexual sex is not homosexual.

Be patient with me here - I'm trying to get across a complex thought ...

Basically I think "homosexual" or "heterosexual" are handy descriptive labels to describe TWO things - actions AND urges/feelings. And that's where the confusion lies.

A person can be "homosexual" in the sense of finding sexual relationships with the same sex person desireable, but "heterosexual" in the sense of they, personally, think that husband/wife sex is the right way to go for them and they choose to feed that urge and starve the homosexual urge.

I don't think a homosexual person can instantly change in BOTH ways. But also, I don't think a person is DEFINED by their sexuality. I think their ACTIONS define them more than their urges. This is hard to express ... let's try this ... say a person has homosexual urges. I don't think it's right for other people to say, "You have homosexual urges, therefore you ARE a homosexual and MUST ACT on those urges!" Just like I have desires, sometimes, to try sex with other men, that doesn't DEFINE my actions - BECAUSE I think it's right for me to only have sex with my husband (and luckily I enjoy it tremendously! ) I don't let those desires DEFINE my actions.

Refraining from sex certainly doesn’t mean they don’t still have tremendous feelings of lust toward others of the same sex and issues with trying to act heterosexual.

I would say you are absolutely right. And I have great compassion towards ANYONE whose sexual desires go against what they think is right to DO for them, whether they are het or homo.

Nor does it mean that they aren’t still racked with guilt or depression because of their INNER state fighting against what their society/upbringing/family/church tells them is right and wrong.

I think each person should do what THEY think is right, not what their society/upbringing/family/church (and I would add friends) tell them is right.

My guess is that you are lumping people that go to Exodus as ALL being ENTIRELY motivated by others, as opposed to personally making that very difficult choice (although certainly EVERYONE considers input from others in most if not all decisions). And I think you're dead wrong.

But again this wouldn’t be a “cure� or a conversion. This would simply be trying to resist your natural impulses for your own reasons. This reminds me of alcoholics anonymous then who acknowledge that they always remain alcoholics until death but may never touch another drink again.

I think that's probably a very good analogy, but I'll have to consider it more.
Do you think that alcoholics should just give in to their urges and drink themselves to death, if they think that's wrong?
Do you think that I should give into my laziness urges and stop fighting against them, if I think they're wrong?
Do you think a person who is homosexual in both senses that I described above should stop fighting those urges if THEY, PERSONALLY, by their OWN decision, think they're wrong for them, personally?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

What “hundreds of thousands� of homosexuals living “happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure� are you referring to exactly? Where do you get these numbers and this kind of qualification of these individuals?

Exodus International is the largest network of former homosexuals in the world. Since 1976, they have come to encompass over 120 ministries in the US and Canada, and have become linked with 150 other ministries in 17 different countries. All this built on few successes and exclusively denial training? That seems unlikely. Besides, I know one of those people and he is happily heterosexually married and an active combatant against homosexual marriage.

I was quoting this organization's president when I said that "hundreds of thousands" have changed. My claims about many of these people being "happily married" were unsupported, but seem only logical. If hundreds of thousands have been changed completely, it only makes sense that a large number of them will be married.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Most studies have found that the percentage of individuals who actually state they no longer feel any homosexual feelings and instead desire the opposite sex after this “curing� program is nearly 0%.

I don't know what studies you're referring to, but the Exodus International site has stated that 30% to 50% of people being changed is not unusual. Here's a quotation from the site about how their program works:

Originally Posted by Exodus International

Working through underlying relational and abuse problems is a significant component in [the transformation] process. Making use of individual and pastoral counseling, support groups, personal Bible study, and a same-sex discipleship group are beneficial.

Here is another point the site raises:

Originally Posted by Exodus International

If homosexuality is genetic, then that doesn't explain why we see such a similarity in personal backgrounds among the men and women who seek our help. There is a pretty uniform picture of poor family dynamics in general, a rift in the father-son or mother-daughter relationship growing up, feelings of being an outsider among one's peers during childhood and adolescence, and instances of sexual abuse/incest. These are root issues that men and women can address.

These wouldn't be a constant, I expect, but they are the organization's overall experience.

[Insidious Rex]

Well the problem is that theres not a lot of studies done on this field. A lot of the “therapists� who do it are essentially fly by night types on the outskirts of real professional therapeutic community and they tend to be almost entirely Fundamentalists and evangelicals. Coincidently…

If you want further information check out DR. ROBERT SPITZER'S STUDY OF REPARATIVE THERAPY

So according to the only recognized study of sexual orientation “therapy�: "there is no published evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation."

The author also said: "...the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority [of gays and lesbians]... "[only] a small minority -- perhaps 3% -- might have a "malleable" sexual orientation."

And this was after the fundies stacked the study with cherry picked choice subjects! Pretty sad really.

A problem is that these “therapists� consider agreeing to be celibate as "curing" someone of homosexuality when its nothing of the kind as I said in my earlier post. That throws things off. Furthermore, they ignore the whole concept of bisexuality. And clearly if someone likes BOTH sexes then its not the same as “curing� someone who strictly goes for the same sex as them. Right? So theres a tremendous amount of data manipulation and bad science involved in this debate from those who have a vested interest in making it look good.