Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Mae Govannon!

I don't know how at all, but I suspect Nenya is capable of more hurricanes and Thranduil is rumored to have some power of his own.

Thank you, my fellow Elda! I didn't know the bit about Thranduil. Cool...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Come on! If once in a thousand years one of such blades has the luck to wound/kill a nazgul, it is worth its money a thousand times over. It matters not whether the blade burns away afterwards - the old smith who made it would be happy anyway. (And note it is not really "disposable" - it could be used many times on ordinary creatures - men, trolls, orcs). It is an old tradition that a blade breaks after fulfilling its supreme goal (Narsil, Turin's blade etc.)

Heheh, you're quite right. I should probably turn my ecological-minded thinking off.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

After the arguments, I too think that the Elves propably didn't help. But if we, for arguments's sake, presume they did - what use would they have had for them? Mithlond, Mirkwood, Rivendell, Lórien, Lindon. Aren't those the Elven Kingdoms of the 3rd Age? Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby. Having become a secretive people, the Elves would hardly go and search for wraiths (=problems). As for Imladris, I doubt that Elrond would say to his Noldor folks: "OK, guys, time to go wraith-hunting. Why don't you polish your armor, I'll forge us a few anti-Nazgûl- blades, and I'll see you in the hall in three years. Questions?"

I suppose I reasoned that if the Elves had the skill and knowledge to make the blades, they may not have gone looking for wraiths to kill, but they might have considered providing the Fellowship with some more of these blades in case the Ring-wraiths turned up. The Elves after all had time to reforge Narsil.

And considering the seemingly reasonable close relationships between the Rangers and Rivendell, it would surprise me if the Rivendell Elves didn't help the Rangers get equiped in anti-wraith gear to clean up the Barrow-downs once and for all.

And Eärniel, I think that you overdo it. What I say I mean; it's difficult to lead anything correct from what I say, cause there are no hidden thoughts in my words. I speak straight and more or less true. No offense, pal.

I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I fully understood your arguments and see the path of your reasoning. I hate to make wrong conclusions on what people meant to say. I did not mean to come off rude or pushy.

Gah, this is the second time in a month someone gets upset about my way of discussing. Am I really that bad?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Earniel

Am I really that bad?

You are the nicest Elf I know. And coming from a nazgul it is a big compliment.

Originally Posted by Earniel

And considering the seemingly reasonable close relationships between the Rangers and Rivendell, it would surprise me if the Rivendell Elves didn't help the Rangers get equiped in anti-wraith gear to clean up the Barrow-downs once and for all.

They would have given some blades to Arvedui's army, taken some with them to the Battle of Fornost, they would surely have given some to Earnur who was so set on going after the Witch-King. But nothing like that happened.
By 1975, the know-how of making the BD blades was obviously lost.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it.

The two nazgul who guarded Dol Guldur were killed along with all the remaining nazgul at Orodruin.

As for the lesser wraiths, likely neither of them "survived" the destruction of the Ring. After all, the Necromancy, the Morgul-magick that turned them into wraiths was ring-derived, most likely. I guess the souls of lesser wraiths would become free and go to Mandos when the One is destroyed and the Nine Rings lose their power.

Also we are not sure there were any lesser wraiths in Dol Guldur. Most were supposed to "live" in Minas Morgul anyway.

By the way, how do you think, were there any lesser wraiths among that cavalry that followed the Morgul Lord out of Minas Morgul?

All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I fully understood your arguments and see the path of your reasoning. I hate to make wrong conclusions on what people meant to say. I did not mean to come off rude or pushy.

Gah, this is the second time in a month someone gets upset about my way of discussing. Am I really that bad?

No, you weren't rude or pushy or anything! Just proved that you're an Elf: "Errare Eldarum est." I didn't get upset, don't worry.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, how do you think, were there any lesser wraiths among that cavalry that followed the Morgul Lord out of Minas Morgul?

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith. They were forced to see Minas Tirith, their former beautiful city, from the highest window () of Minas Morgul. This "witch window" made them see M.T. brutally twisted, ugly and forbidding. Their minds slowly bent to hatred, they were granted some minor power and "brainwashed" into something like (my own thought) lesser Mouths of Sauron.

How's that for you?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith. They were forced to see Minas Tirith, their former beautiful city, from the highest window () of Minas Morgul. This "witch window" made them see M.T. brutally twisted, ugly and forbidding. Their minds slowly bent to hatred, they were granted some minor power and "brainwashed" into something like (my own thought) lesser Mouths of Sauron.

How's that for you?

Fanfiction.
I doubt Minas Tirith is visible even "from the highest window of Minas Morgul."

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think the implication was that they were placed in some sort of "seat of seeing" like Morgoth put Hurin in, or like Amon Hen, though I've never read such a thing, either.

[Gordis]

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stab with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stub with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft.

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft.

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences.

Movie MOS?

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You are the nicest Elf I know. And coming from a nazgul it is a big compliment.

Thanks! And you are my favourite Nazgûl.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

No, you weren't rude or pushy or anything! Just proved that you're an Elf: "Errare Eldarum est." I didn't get upset, don't worry.

Yeay! No worries!

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith.

I don't recall having read this sort of story either. I would follow Gordis' conclusion that this was fanfiction.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Movie MOS?

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.

No. not movie MoS. Our personal picture of him. Honestly, Gor, you think I'm still that movie worshipping semifan I used to be?

I guess I should do as advised... though my pride keeps getting on the way. However, I do always try to make myself clear, be it consciously or not.

The reason why I said "lead stuff" was because I try to speak so that there's nothing more to my sentences except what they clearly say.

[Gordis]

OK, OK - no problem, NOL.
Do you have a link to this fic?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

OK, OK - no problem, NOL.
Do you have a link to this fic?

Just so no one gets confused, please be kind and call me NEL or Nelly, as these were awarded to me in the Teacup Cafe, and are frequently used by others. ...then again, NOL refers kinda to N(g)oldor. thanks for the idea!

No, I have no link. it's just a vague memory. Pity.

[Gordis]

Er... sorry, NEL!

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Er... sorry, NEL!

This is the wierdest thing an Elf Lord has said to a Nazgûl, but there's nothing to be sorry for. I may well use something Noldor- related in my title once I get to choose it.

Back to the topic, though: I do not believe that there were wraiths among the cavalry from Minas Morgul. IMO, they were propably something like the last remnants of the Dark Numenorians who didn't live in Umbar, and who had been covered in the Shadow of the Enemy to make them look more intimidating. ...yeah, right...

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it.

[/SIZE]

As I recall it, the Elves of Lorien destroyed the wraiths of Dol Guldur AFTER the One (and the Nine) were destroyed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As I recall it, the Elves of Lorien destroyed the wraiths of Dol Guldur AFTER the One (and the Nine) were destroyed.

Exactly - if there were any wraiths left after March 25, that is.

But note: Aragorn refused to try to reclaim and "cleanse" Minas Morgul. Why so, I wonder?

[Alcuin]

I don’t recall Tolkien saying that the Elves ever forged “barrow-blade”-type weapons. I believe that the only smiths he wrote as having made any were among the Northern Dúnedain:

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king.

The phrase “work of Westernesse” could mean either “of Númenor” or “of the Númenóreans,” but I take it to mean “of the Númenóreans” and so identical to the phrase “of the Dúnedain [in exile]”, or else the portion that says “when the Dúnedain were young” would mean that the manufacture of the blades was very early in the history of Arnor, before the days of Angmar, I would imagine.

The phrase “when the Dúnedain were young” seems to me to refer generally to the days in which the North Kingdom still existed; and by inference, once it “died,” the Dúnedain (at least in the North) became “old,” perhaps in some ways comparable to their essential allies, the Elves, without whom they could not have survived.

Minas Morgul was polluted beyond redemption, I think: Morgul Vale, which had been a beautiful land before its fall around III 2000, was burned; when Minas Morgul was destroyed I do not know. Dol Guldur was made, in part, with the power of the Rings – with the power of the Nine, certainly, if not with some guidance by Sauron himself, whose power was bound up in the continued existence of the One Ring: it should have fallen with the end of the One Ring, and so also the power of the Nine; Tolkien says that Galadriel destroyed what was left. The eight Ringwraiths that the force led by Aragorn and the Captains of Gondor saw at the Morannon were destroyed when Sauron (mentally?) summoned them to Orodruin to seize the Ring:

with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But note: Aragorn refused to try to reclaim and "cleanse" Minas Morgul. Why so, I wonder?

Maybe because it was so far gone and degenerated to the point that nothing would ever get rid of the stains it had recieved. Plus, there's the fact that a bad reputation is a very hard thing to get rid of, even if the things that caused it have gone forever.

It's just like the haunted houses in those cheap horror movies - they could easily know it down/rebuild it, but the reputation it gained in the mean time would make it very difficult to sell.