Wheel of Time discussions - Page 6

Lenya · 07-05-2005, 02:57 PM

On the extraneous detail, I think he kinda set out to write a looong story as part of his mission. I agree, the books are a bit of a drag. But I'll the thing that saves them is the numerous characters. The story would be boring if you had to read about the same 3 people the whole time. The only thing that keeps me reading on when I get tired of his style is the hope that the next chapter is on one of the guys I like - or I keep reading till I get to that character again to see what happened.

I haven't read New Springs yet, don't think I will, but I can't wait for the story to finish. I wish Jordan would get on with it!

BTW, who's your favourite character(s)? Mine's Egwene & Perrin.

Daisy Baggins · 07-06-2005, 12:59 PM

My favorite character is Rand. He's the one who is supposed to save the world in the end. I know that he gets rather weird at times, but I think it was the fact that saidin hadn't been cleansed. It was rather like Frodo being corrupted by the ring.

When I mentioned too many characters, I didn't mean the major or even the minor ones. I meant the people he mentions once

for no apparent reason. He also often gives endless details about what people are wearing which has no bearing on the story. Often he'll go on and on about stuff that just bogs down the story and just when I'm about to give up, he'll throw in something that's really good and interesting.

Beren3000 · 07-06-2005, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy Baggins

When I mentioned too many characters, I didn't mean the major or even the minor ones. I meant the people he mentions once for no apparent reason.

I know what you're saying. Whenever I see this kind of thing I can't help thinking: "he's such a Tolkien rip-off!" IMO, this is his (not very successful) way of ripping-off Tolkien's "historical feel". By that I mean the way Tolkien mentions some interesting tidbits about a character just to give his stories the feel of authenticity, with Tolkien it works but with RJ

Wayfarer · 07-07-2005, 12:59 PM

I've never felt (even slightly) the Jordan was a Tolkien ripoff.

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.

Lief Erikson · 07-07-2005, 01:07 PM

Does anyone have a clue when the next "Wheel of Time" book will be coming out?

Falagar · 07-07-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

I've never felt (even slightly) the Jordan was a Tolkien ripoff.

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.

I cried "Freemen-ripoff!" when I first read about the Aiel.

Thought the next Jordan-book was due october this year, but may very well be wrong.

Beren3000 · 07-08-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.

Well, unfortunately I haven't read the Dune books (yet) so I wouldn't know. But most modern fantasy writers (consciously or otherwise) incorporate some Tolkien-ish elements into their stories so if RJ decided to rip-off Herbert, then maybe this included imitating the imitation of Tolkien's style (hope that made sense

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

Thought the next Jordan-book was due october this year, but may very well be wrong.

That's what it says on Dragonmount

Wayfarer · 07-08-2005, 06:52 PM

Dune isn't really fantasy, though. It's sci-fi with some fantastical elements.
And I really don't think the Wheel of Time (or Dune) is very similar to Tolkien at all. Tolkien's style and setting are both very distinct, and Jordan doesn't come anything close in either category.

Lenya · 07-09-2005, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Dune isn't really fantasy, though. It's sci-fi with some fantastical elements.
And I really don't think the Wheel of Time (or Dune) is very similar to Tolkien at all. Tolkien's style and setting are both very distinct, and Jordan doesn't come anything close in either category.

He doesn't come close, but I still enjoyd reading WoT. You should just not expect it to be as good as Tolkien. I don't think its like Tolkien eather, Tolkien's books are more poetic, he writes beautiful things, Jordan doesn't.

Daisy Baggins · 07-09-2005, 09:14 PM

There's only so many themes in science fiction or fantasy, so it's impossible not to see some similarities. The Aiel don't make me think of the Freemen, but it's a long time since I've read Dune. I think that Jordan has created a distinct world of his own. It doesn't remind me of the Lord of the Rings. I'm rereading the first book-The Eye of the World. This book doesn't have so many extraneous facts, and he doesn't seem to just ramble on. Jordan seems to have been much more disciplined when he wrote it than he was with the later books. I'm not an expert on the Wheel of Time, but I've read that originally he intended to write three books. Now, I think he's on book eleven. At times, he just seems to get carried away with trivia which has no relavance to the story and go on and on and on. Sometimes I want to scream - just get on with it.

Lenya · 07-17-2005, 07:16 AM

That's just how I feel - the screeming part. And yet I've read all 10 and I'm rather impatiently waiting for the last 2.

we're all hopeless.

flupke · 07-17-2005, 08:09 AM

I'm reading the 4th book now,starting in it anyway, and the only thing that rteminds me of lord of the rings are the names, and names of places, like mount doom has found a place in WOT as well.
But the writing style isn't similar to that of Tolkien, in fact, only some parts of the storyline remind me of LOTR.
The thing that confuses me the most is when Jordan gets to political.

Lenya · 07-17-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flupke

The thing that confuses me the most is when Jordan gets to political.

That's just the point. Their politics are so screwed up, none of it makes sence.

flupke · 07-18-2005, 01:56 PM

I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote

brownjenkins · 07-18-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

I cried "Freemen-ripoff!" when I first read about the Aiel.

me too... conceptually, in terms of culture and personality as a race, they are very similarly drawn... not to mention the obvious desert-nomad similarities

Beren3000 · 07-18-2005, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenya

I don't think its like Tolkien eather, Tolkien's books are more poetic, he writes beautiful things, Jordan doesn't.

Which is exactly why Tolkien is the better writer. What I'm saying is, RJ tried to incorporate some of Tolkien's style (especially mentioning facts about non-relevant characters) but without much success. Tolkien does it like no other IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flupke

I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote

Wait till you reach book 6!!

flupke · 07-18-2005, 03:47 PM

This is the part where I wonder, is it still worth reading

Wayfarer · 07-21-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

That's just the point. Their politics are so screwed up, none of it makes sence.

I think if I were to list RJ's major failings in the Wheel of Time, I would say that:

He writes about politics, while not knowing the first thing about how politics work.
He writes about (fictional) history, while not having a clear grasp on the principles that underlie it.
He writes about Evil Overlords, but doesn't seem to comprehend what being Evil actually implies.
He writes about women in a way that causes me to suspect he's had few (or poor) experiences with real females (to be honest, he can come across as quite mysoginistic).
He writes about Fate and Destiny and all this herioc claptrap, but even he doesn't have any idea how it's supposed to play out in the end.
And the same could be said for a number of other subjects - I'll spare you the details.

As a writer, Jordan's reach exceeds his grasp. He throws in everything 'cool' that he can possibly think of, mashes it together (not in the good way), and churns out one novel after another without any particular purpose but killing trees and raking in cash.

He suffers from what I suppose you could call hollywoodism - the novel (the published medium) begins to supercede the story (the Art if you will) of the book. It's mass-production in entertainment - clumps rather than a single finely-crafted masterpiece.

flupke · 07-21-2005, 05:30 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself

But please don't spare methe details.

The only thing you forgot to mention is that he took to many ideas from other books or tales. (you can relate olmost anything to another book or tales) in particular the names are all from the tale of king artur.

Lief Erikson · 07-22-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flupke

I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote

I still enjoyed them quite a lot after book 4, flupke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

He writes about politics, while not knowing the first thing about how politics work.
He writes about (fictional) history, while not having a clear grasp on the principles that underlie it.
He writes about Evil Overlords, but doesn't seem to comprehend what being Evil actually implies.

Would you expound on these three points, providing examples and further explanation? I didn't have much trouble with the politics or history in his world, but perhaps you're more enlightened than I am, or perhaps I haven't thought about it so much. The main difficulty I can see with the evil is that most of the evil characters have no personality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

He writes about women in a way that causes me to suspect he's had few (or poor) experiences with real females (to be honest, he can come across as quite mysoginistic).
He writes about Fate and Destiny and all this herioc claptrap, but even he doesn't have any idea how it's supposed to play out in the end.

I certainly hope you're wrong about his not knowing how it's going to play out in the end!

As regards your point about women in WoT, I must confess, sometimes I have wondered the same thing about Robert Jordan's personal life. I think you're right on as regards them.

07-07-2005, 12:59 PM	#104
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I've never felt (even slightly) the Jordan was a Tolkien ripoff. Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

07-07-2005, 01:07 PM	#105
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Does anyone have a clue when the next "Wheel of Time" book will be coming out? __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

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07-05-2005, 02:57 PM	#101
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	On the extraneous detail, I think he kinda set out to write a looong story as part of his mission. I agree, the books are a bit of a drag. But I'll the thing that saves them is the numerous characters. The story would be boring if you had to read about the same 3 people the whole time. The only thing that keeps me reading on when I get tired of his style is the hope that the next chapter is on one of the guys I like - or I keep reading till I get to that character again to see what happened. I haven't read New Springs yet, don't think I will, but I can't wait for the story to finish. I wish Jordan would get on with it! BTW, who's your favourite character(s)? Mine's Egwene & Perrin.

07-06-2005, 12:59 PM	#102
Daisy Baggins Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 26	My favorite character is Rand. He's the one who is supposed to save the world in the end. I know that he gets rather weird at times, but I think it was the fact that saidin hadn't been cleansed. It was rather like Frodo being corrupted by the ring. When I mentioned too many characters, I didn't mean the major or even the minor ones. I meant the people he mentions once for no apparent reason. He also often gives endless details about what people are wearing which has no bearing on the story. Often he'll go on and on about stuff that just bogs down the story and just when I'm about to give up, he'll throw in something that's really good and interesting.

07-08-2005, 06:52 PM	#108
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Dune isn't really fantasy, though. It's sci-fi with some fantastical elements. And I really don't think the Wheel of Time (or Dune) is very similar to Tolkien at all. Tolkien's style and setting are both very distinct, and Jordan doesn't come anything close in either category.

07-09-2005, 09:14 PM	#110
Daisy Baggins Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 26	There's only so many themes in science fiction or fantasy, so it's impossible not to see some similarities. The Aiel don't make me think of the Freemen, but it's a long time since I've read Dune. I think that Jordan has created a distinct world of his own. It doesn't remind me of the Lord of the Rings. I'm rereading the first book-The Eye of the World. This book doesn't have so many extraneous facts, and he doesn't seem to just ramble on. Jordan seems to have been much more disciplined when he wrote it than he was with the later books. I'm not an expert on the Wheel of Time, but I've read that originally he intended to write three books. Now, I think he's on book eleven. At times, he just seems to get carried away with trivia which has no relavance to the story and go on and on and on. Sometimes I want to scream - just get on with it.

07-17-2005, 07:16 AM	#111
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	That's just how I feel - the screeming part. And yet I've read all 10 and I'm rather impatiently waiting for the last 2. we're all hopeless.

07-17-2005, 08:09 AM	#112
flupke Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Between this world and reality, or was it the other way around Posts: 70	I'm reading the 4th book now,starting in it anyway, and the only thing that rteminds me of lord of the rings are the names, and names of places, like mount doom has found a place in WOT as well. But the writing style isn't similar to that of Tolkien, in fact, only some parts of the storyline remind me of LOTR. The thing that confuses me the most is when Jordan gets to political.

07-18-2005, 01:56 PM	#114
flupke Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Between this world and reality, or was it the other way around Posts: 70	I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote

07-18-2005, 03:47 PM	#117
flupke Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Between this world and reality, or was it the other way around Posts: 70	This is the part where I wonder, is it still worth reading

07-21-2005, 05:30 PM	#119
flupke Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Between this world and reality, or was it the other way around Posts: 70	I couldn't have said it better myself But please don't spare methe details. The only thing you forgot to mention is that he took to many ideas from other books or tales. (you can relate olmost anything to another book or tales) in particular the names are all from the tale of king artur.