The Anti-theist Thread - Page 56

Lizra · 05-07-2002, 07:02 PM

Nine years ago I home schooled my daughter. The only other home school moms were doing it because they were christians, and they wanted to teach their children C/values. They have all their own text books about creationism and all that. I was dumbfounded. They totally rejected lots of science. something about carbon 14 dating being a bunch of hooey. They believed in dinosaurs ( how can you argue with the fossils!) but not neanderthrals and such. I was speechless and sputtering, I didn't want to call these lovely' caring women stupid. I just gave up. But, what to tell your own children. Sigh, again.

Rána Eressëa · 05-07-2002, 10:38 PM

They have fossils of neanderthrals just as they have fossils of dinosaurs . . . and you don't believe in them? You're kidding, right?

Lizra · 05-08-2002, 12:41 AM

Not me, These home school moms I was with. I love and believe science. Anyway, they had been to programs and study groups that talked about how carbon 14 dating was all wrong and everything really checks right out with the Genesis story. I'll tell you, these ladies were happy as clams, and here I was with all my doubts and questions, trying to figure it all out. I think the joke might be on me, what does it matter who is right? Don't waste this one life being miserable trying to be right. I just hang with good people and leave it at that now. Begone evil deep thoughts!

Blackheart · 05-08-2002, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
hey BH

your thoughts on this

Science offers proof without any certainty. Creationists offer certainty without any proof.
Ashley Montagu (Anthropologist)

Science does not offer proof. Whoever said that was sadly mistaken, or bring intentioanlly misleading. It can offer "proofs", evidence, "objective" measurements. But not proof even does it offer. It merely seeks to observe and provide the best possible explination, or model if you like. best possible can be defined any number of ways, but that's a side track.

Creationists offer little if anything in the way of certainty. Except the certainty that they have no empirical evidence that supports their claim. Their coin is faith, and I have little use for faith in either religion or science.

Saying I don't know suits me better. Intelligent design? I don't know. No way to tell. There. What's the big fuss about? If it's metaphysical, how are you going to construct a test for it? Using sceince to answer metaphysical questions is about as useful as using theosophy or philosphy to answer empirical questions.

Quote:

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Delos McKown (Ph.D. philosopher and former clergyman)

So do snowflakes, until you get very close.

However in at least one case, they are virtually the same. hint hint.

Blackheart · 05-08-2002, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
SCREAM

hah. Come to the dark side.

What makes you think if there was a supreme being, he'd bother to change things for the monkeys in the monkey house?

If I'm going to think about a supreme intelligence etc, I'm not likely to be so limited.

You are meat for the elder gods.

afro-elf · 05-08-2002, 05:50 AM

I think the scream was a direct response to the believers you claim an all loving, merciful, powerful knowing all-merciful
all-benevolent
all-compassionate
all-kind
God.
etc.

Quote:

What makes you think if there was a supreme being, he'd bother to change things for the monkeys in the monkey house?

Quote:

If I'm going to think about a supreme intelligence etc, I'm not likely to be so limited.

i think that scream addresses just that

Andúril · 05-08-2002, 06:04 AM

Fine. If nobody wants to talk about my Happy Bible Review, I'll adopt another issue.

Is sin allowed in Heaven? I'll assume no for now. This leaves me with at least two possibilities:

1) God does not permit sinful actions in Heaven, that is, it is impossible to perform sinful actions in Heaven.
2) God does not want sinful actions in Heaven, but they might occur. In that case, the sinful party(ies) depart (forcefully or not).

Scenario 1 is incorrect, as far as biblical doctrine is concerned. This is evidenced by the assertion that Satan, and a third of the angels rebelled against God (sinned), and they were either (my mind is fuzzy on this...) thrown out, or kicked out. Either way, they departed from Heaven. But this proposed event contradicts scenario 1, so we must come to the conclusion that it is false.

Scenario 2 manages to include the Rebellion in its scope. But this means that all those who managed to pass the minimum requirements for entry still have the potential to sin. And since it is human nature to sin (as implied in the bible), those who make it into Heaven will probably sin. There is definitely enough time to for the odds to be probable.

Now someone might say that we cease to be "human" or "Man" as we enter Heaven. What makes us human is left in the physical universe, and it is only the soul that continues on to God's realm. Therefore, the sinful nature of the human is removed, and we have "different" intentions.

My opinion on this is that if certain tendencies, and essentially the possibility of performing unGodly actions are stripped from our box of tricks, we lose the functionality of the "free will" the bible asserts we are given by God, as humans.

One could say that the entire free will concept is not given up, only the possibly sinful actions. These actions are deleted from all possible actions, but out of all the other actions, free will still reigns.

Now I don't really see a problem with this. We currently have free will (the bible claims), whereby out of all the possible actions we can perform, we may choose between them. Once stripped of the sinful nature, this list of possible actions becomes smaller - much smaller. One could say that just because we can't fly, it is not because our free-will is hindered. Flying is just not a possible action. If flying were possible, our free will would encompass that action.

There is a problem. What is causing our inability to fly? The laws of nature? Gravity? These things the Lord has instigated in his created universe. Christians have from the start assumed that whatever our free will allows us to do, that is all we can do, and God is fair. However, God has basically drawn a line at the point where he has for some or other reason decided our abilities should not pass.

Free will is the ability to choose between all possible actions. Possible actions are only what God decides they are. Therefore, free will has a limit, because God has put a limit on our possible actions (drawn the line where he decides the "laws of nature" should not be broken - or basically designed the laws in such a way that we cannot do certain things, like flying).

I submit that this free will that is God-given is bogus. If we were organisms that could do only two things, perhaps bounce or not bounce, we could say that we have free will, because we can choose whether or not to bounce. But free will is determined by the limit that God has put on our abilities. We are not free at all.

I wonder if Christians have actually thought about the implications of existing in Heaven. Not only would they not have a brain, which provides the potential for thought. But they would also not be able to perform acts which are fully possible in our current state. They would be absolutely submissive to God. And this would last for eternity, an infinite amount of time, if this is even comprehensible.

Eternal submission, in my opinion, is more deserved of the term Hell, or whatever thoughts and feelings "hell" provides us with.

So scenario 2 doesn't really work out either.

afro-elf · 05-08-2002, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Koeknut 1:3 And Anduril said, Let there be smite: and there was smite.

how about words from the irreverent bible

to add to st. anduril

if thy !@#$'s itch scratch them

st. afro-elf

BeardofPants · 05-08-2002, 06:28 AM

... Don't forget the divine box....

And the Lord God said, let there be box! And on the seventh day... well...

Andúril · 05-08-2002, 07:06 AM

Look at my new sig. I think it sums things up nicely.

Andúril · 05-08-2002, 10:24 AM

That's Pope Anduril, not Saint.

afro-elf · 05-08-2002, 11:53 AM

pope anduril

high priestess Bop

Agnostic abbot BH

dark mystic AE

Servant of the Earth Cirdan

herectic babe RE

so let it be written
so let it be done

Blackheart · 05-08-2002, 01:30 PM

Don't include me in your antithocratic machinations!

I run my own cult, and for $9.95 US you too can become a member. We espouse sex, and rational thought, and sex, and umm sex, and thinking rational thoughts about sex.

Oh yes, and umm.. There was something else, but I seem to have forgotten it.

BeardofPants · 05-08-2002, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
Oh yes, and umm.. There was something else, but I seem to have forgotten it.

You forgot MORE SEX, you ninnyhammer.

On to further things, never again am I going to make fun of the pink unicorns. They really existed! No, really! The bible says so, so it MUST be true.... :P

Quote:

God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. (Numbers 23:22)

Quote:

Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? (Job 39:9)

Quote:

His glory is like the firstlings of his bullock; and his horns are like the horns of unicorns. (Deuteronomy 33:17)

Quote:

He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn. (Psalm 29:6)

Blackheart · 05-08-2002, 05:27 PM

No no.. I said more sex....

Oh yeah!

Ranch Dressing! It had something to do with.. ranch dressing?

***Earniel*** · 05-08-2002, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
On to further things, never again am I going to make fun of the pink unicorns. They really existed! No, really! The bible says so, so it MUST be true.... :P

What? Goodlooking men with wings don't exist but fluffy pink unicorns do? Fne! So unfair!

BeardofPants · 05-08-2002, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
Ranch Dressing! It had something to do with.. ranch dressing?

Quit scaring people with pictures of orcs and ranch dressing....

No, scare yourself here instead! He uses LAMARCK to debunk for eru's sake....

Aarrrgh...! And he's mangling the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics again!! It's energy dispersal, people, NOT degeneration!!! The whole uses LESS energy than the parts.... Ah geez, why do I bother?

And humans as a work of art? Please! We're born NINE MONTHS prematurely because of the size of our great big wonking heads. *sigh*

Andúril · 05-09-2002, 02:20 AM

First of all, we need to give our religion a name.

I propose.....

....Koeknut

or

...Skudoomph Moomf

or maybe my disciples can think of a better name...

so says Pope Anduril.

BeardofPants · 05-09-2002, 02:23 AM

I'm sorry, I have to bow out. I'm already too busy worshipping myself.

Andúril · 05-09-2002, 02:33 AM

Same here. Well, the remedy is simple. i propose the first in the long list of doctrinal code:

1) Worship nobody but yourself.

05-07-2002, 07:02 PM	#1101
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Nine years ago I home schooled my daughter. The only other home school moms were doing it because they were christians, and they wanted to teach their children C/values. They have all their own text books about creationism and all that. I was dumbfounded. They totally rejected lots of science. something about carbon 14 dating being a bunch of hooey. They believed in dinosaurs ( how can you argue with the fossils!) but not neanderthrals and such. I was speechless and sputtering, I didn't want to call these lovely' caring women stupid. I just gave up. But, what to tell your own children. Sigh, again. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 05-07-2002 at 07:06 PM.

05-08-2002, 12:41 AM	#1103
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Not me, These home school moms I was with. I love and believe science. Anyway, they had been to programs and study groups that talked about how carbon 14 dating was all wrong and everything really checks right out with the Genesis story. I'll tell you, these ladies were happy as clams, and here I was with all my doubts and questions, trying to figure it all out. I think the joke might be on me, what does it matter who is right? Don't waste this one life being miserable trying to be right. I just hang with good people and leave it at that now. Begone evil deep thoughts! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 05-08-2002 at 12:47 AM.

05-08-2002, 06:28 AM	#1109
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	... Don't forget the divine box.... And the Lord God said, let there be box! And on the seventh day... well... __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-08-2002 at 06:32 AM.

05-08-2002, 11:53 AM	#1112
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	pope anduril high priestess Bop Agnostic abbot BH dark mystic AE Servant of the Earth Cirdan herectic babe RE so let it be written so let it be done __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-08-2002, 01:30 PM	#1113
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Don't include me in your antithocratic machinations! I run my own cult, and for $9.95 US you too can become a member. We espouse sex, and rational thought, and sex, and umm sex, and thinking rational thoughts about sex. Oh yes, and umm.. There was something else, but I seem to have forgotten it. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

05-07-2002, 10:38 PM	#1102
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	They have fossils of neanderthrals just as they have fossils of dinosaurs . . . and you don't believe in them? You're kidding, right?

05-08-2002, 06:04 AM	#1107
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Fine. If nobody wants to talk about my Happy Bible Review, I'll adopt another issue. Is sin allowed in Heaven? I'll assume no for now. This leaves me with at least two possibilities: 1) God does not permit sinful actions in Heaven, that is, it is impossible to perform sinful actions in Heaven. 2) God does not want sinful actions in Heaven, but they might occur. In that case, the sinful party(ies) depart (forcefully or not). Scenario 1 is incorrect, as far as biblical doctrine is concerned. This is evidenced by the assertion that Satan, and a third of the angels rebelled against God (sinned), and they were either (my mind is fuzzy on this...) thrown out, or kicked out. Either way, they departed from Heaven. But this proposed event contradicts scenario 1, so we must come to the conclusion that it is false. Scenario 2 manages to include the Rebellion in its scope. But this means that all those who managed to pass the minimum requirements for entry still have the potential to sin. And since it is human nature to sin (as implied in the bible), those who make it into Heaven will probably sin. There is definitely enough time to for the odds to be probable. Now someone might say that we cease to be "human" or "Man" as we enter Heaven. What makes us human is left in the physical universe, and it is only the soul that continues on to God's realm. Therefore, the sinful nature of the human is removed, and we have "different" intentions. My opinion on this is that if certain tendencies, and essentially the possibility of performing unGodly actions are stripped from our box of tricks, we lose the functionality of the "free will" the bible asserts we are given by God, as humans. One could say that the entire free will concept is not given up, only the possibly sinful actions. These actions are deleted from all possible actions, but out of all the other actions, free will still reigns. Now I don't really see a problem with this. We currently have free will (the bible claims), whereby out of all the possible actions we can perform, we may choose between them. Once stripped of the sinful nature, this list of possible actions becomes smaller - much smaller. One could say that just because we can't fly, it is not because our free-will is hindered. Flying is just not a possible action. If flying were possible, our free will would encompass that action. There is a problem. What is causing our inability to fly? The laws of nature? Gravity? These things the Lord has instigated in his created universe. Christians have from the start assumed that whatever our free will allows us to do, that is all we can do, and God is fair. However, God has basically drawn a line at the point where he has for some or other reason decided our abilities should not pass. Free will is the ability to choose between all possible actions. Possible actions are only what God decides they are. Therefore, free will has a limit, because God has put a limit on our possible actions (drawn the line where he decides the "laws of nature" should not be broken - or basically designed the laws in such a way that we cannot do certain things, like flying). I submit that this free will that is God-given is bogus. If we were organisms that could do only two things, perhaps bounce or not bounce, we could say that we have free will, because we can choose whether or not to bounce. But free will is determined by the limit that God has put on our abilities. We are not free at all. I wonder if Christians have actually thought about the implications of existing in Heaven. Not only would they not have a brain, which provides the potential for thought. But they would also not be able to perform acts which are fully possible in our current state. They would be absolutely submissive to God. And this would last for eternity, an infinite amount of time, if this is even comprehensible. Eternal submission, in my opinion, is more deserved of the term Hell, or whatever thoughts and feelings "hell" provides us with. So scenario 2 doesn't really work out either.

05-08-2002, 07:06 AM	#1110
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Look at my new sig. I think it sums things up nicely.

05-08-2002, 10:24 AM	#1111
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	That's Pope Anduril, not Saint.

05-08-2002, 05:27 PM	#1115
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	No no.. I said more sex.... Oh yeah! Ranch Dressing! It had something to do with.. ranch dressing? __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

05-09-2002, 02:20 AM	#1118
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	First of all, we need to give our religion a name. I propose..... ....Koeknut or ...Skudoomph Moomf or maybe my disciples can think of a better name... so says Pope Anduril.

05-09-2002, 02:23 AM	#1119
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'm sorry, I have to bow out. I'm already too busy worshipping myself. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

05-09-2002, 02:33 AM	#1120
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Same here. Well, the remedy is simple. i propose the first in the long list of doctrinal code: 1) Worship nobody but yourself.

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