REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex

I find it dubious at best to suppose there is a human like god who created this vast expanse of time and space, speckling it with uncounted trillions of galaxies and yet had OUR miserable rears in mind as his highest most precious pets (or children) and is extremely concerned with exactly what we eat and who marries who and what we do in our bedrooms, etc. That is just patently absurd to me and truly I lump it in there with flat earths and earth centered galaxies and much worse nonsense.

What makes you find it absurd that God is so concerned about us? And also...He is not a "human like" God. Rather, we humans are made in His image. I would consider that a difference.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Mercutio
What makes you find it absurd that God is so concerned about us? And also...He is not a "human like" God. Rather, we humans are made in His image. I would consider that a difference.

i think the point is that it is not absurd given the vast variety of life on our own planet and the potential for a billion times that amount in the universe to assume that humanity is not any more "special" than anything else

i believe it was a human who wrote that we were made in his image... maybe a bit of biased

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i think the point is that it is not absurd given the vast variety of life on our own planet and the potential for a billion times that amount in the universe to assume that humanity is not any more "special" than anything else

Do you have any moral problems with squashing a mosquito? Do you have any moral problems with killing a human?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh damn i missed "attack the agnostics" day. good thing bj caught up to that "agnostics are all cop outs" statement before I did let me tell you...

And once more, I did NOT say "agnostics are all cop outs"

the very IDEA of a devout creationist christian castigating agnostics for being close minded and short thinking... oh my goodness... thats the very height of hypocrisy in my evidently limited opinion...

How is it the "very height of hypocrisy"? (I read the paragraph after this sentence, and it didn't explain it to my satisfaction)

Having spent many years learning about the very roots of all religions and tracing the history of man's religion in a strictly neutral, academic and information hungry sense it has become quite clear to me that christianity is simply a manifestation of something that has trailed continuously throughout history as mans way of approaching his world.

And it is quite clear to ME that it is NOT "simply a manifestation...". And my opinion is as good as yours, right?

If you look at ancient judaic scriptures (and more importantly the pre-judean works that predated the concept of the god of Abraham) you see a steady EVOLVING conceptualizing among the humans of the ancient middle east of a god concept that like a river meandered back and forth until it culminated with the whole jesus story.

A god-concept is in everyone's heart, I would say (and this is said in the Bible, too).

you see a very different concept for god throughout this time. From a highly personal extremely vindictive one to a softer forgiving deity of unlimited power.

The God of the Bible has not changed. Non-Christian concepts of God may have changed.

From a cult buoyed by myths and force to a revolution carried and simmered by the meekest and the downtrodden. But all along its an evolving one. To ME this tells me something about HUMANITY and not about divinity. It tells me how the mind works and how ancient societies conceptualized and how strong the urge for having something bigger is in man. It has done nothing BUT reinforce my agnostic approach to observing the universe.

Your opinion; mine is quite different.

So to say agnostics purposefully stick themselves in a place where they refuse to budge and refuse to learn any further about their world is maddeningly ridiculous in the highest.

I didn't say this. Please don't "evolve" what I say into something that I did not say!

We are open to ALL possibilities. Just SHOW them to us.

But agnostics typically won't choose any; they will just choose to not choose (which really IS choosing).

You may also show ME anything, and I"ll consider it I'm quite open-minded.

Dont sit there and say well see if you would just have FAITH youd understand the TRUTH.

I didn't say that. Perhaps another Christian did.

the TRUTH is right in front of me. And it includes the fact that mass delusion is a human psychological standard. I guess its up to humans to sit here and argue whose delusion is the real delusion.

So what you're saying here is .. what? That there's truth, but we could be deluded about it? So again, your position appears to be "we'll never know" - so why do you have opinions on anything?

But as an agnostic Im the only one who can say it could be any one of us or all of us.

And do you see merit in this? What is the merit in this position?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Mercutio
What makes you find it absurd that God is so concerned about us? And also...He is not a "human like" God. Rather, we humans are made in His image. I would consider that a difference.

That makes us sound like some elaborate ant farm. What is the point of making this vast enormous universe just to create these imperfect little beings on a speck of insignificant dust amid the trillions that are out there? That makes no sense to me at all. Why would you focus on one particular grain of sand out of every grain of sand of every beach in the world? Why not just make an earth centered universe if we are his pets and we are made in his image and we are the special ones here? Why make this elaborate universe so vast and just filled with layers and layers of details that scream out to the fact that we arent celestial mega lottery winners but in fact we just are part of the NATURAL processies of said universe.

I find it absurd that a creative force would be so concerned with the nitty gritty gossipy details of a vanishingly insignificant portion of its creation. In fact I have a hard time even approaching the idea of an unfathomable creative force in the same sentence with a petty human like concern for what we do. it seems to me by definition a creative force capable of creating ALL this would be beyond describing in such terms. in fact powers beyond. we couldnt approach it. The problem is of course is that this agrument is forever cycling. For the logical reply as a christian should be well its because HE is all powerful so even though he is super big and powerful and can do everything and we are small he is still capable of being concerned with our every move BECAUSE he is all powerful! And where does that leave my argument that a creative force cant be approached in human terms?

[Insidious Rex]

How is it the "very height of hypocrisy"? (I read the paragraph after this sentence, and it didn't explain it to my satisfaction)

to be accused by a creationist of being close minded and short thinking? And simply for believing that we don’t know everything yet? Id say its pretty self explanatory.

A god-concept is in everyone's heart, I would say (and this is said in the Bible, too).

funny theres just blood in mine. All my god concepts are in my head. For this is where the cognitive deduction of how we perceive and explain our reality plays out. This has been true since the very first fertility cults jetting back into the nearly untraceable past. And continues into today in its present form.

The God of the Bible has not changed. Non-Christian concepts of God may have changed.

How can you say that god in the whole bible never changes? It seems like night and day to me. The god of Abraham and the god of Moses and the god of Elijah etc., etc. is translated with the exact same language and personality as the god of jesus?

I didn't say this. Please don't "evolve" what I say into something that I did not say!

oh no this was just a simple accurate straight forward restatement. Evolution would have taken your comments in a fundamentally different direction all together. But despite your insistences to the contrary they would still be related to their original ancestor. And not created from out of thin air at the whim of a mighty creator.

But agnostics typically won't choose any; they will just choose to not choose (which really IS choosing).

you love to try to wrestle agnosticism down to your level of “its my way or its the wrong way!� when in fact agnosticism is simply about what we know. Nothing more. Nothing less. There is simply no need to ridicule it because it doesn’t jump up and shout out one particular fundamental microscopic belief system that is the RIGHT one! And then competes rabidly with all other belief systems for power. Its simply about what we know, what we can know and what is possible. If something falls beyond that then it certainly doesn’t make it a weak approach to viewing things. that’s just ridiculous. I can jump up and down and declare that the secret of the universe is that a giant blue pig made the earth when he was driving his motorcycle through the heavens but that doesn’t suddenly make my point of view more legitimate simply because I DECLARE it boldly and loudly and LIVE it thoroughly. Spare me. Not knowing everything fits in quite well with our connection with the universe if you ask me. Having it all figured out should be suspect as a rule. And Christianity thinks it has everything covered. Agnosticism acknowledges that there are certainly gaps and we need not pretend the gaps either aren’t there or attempt to fill them in ourselves when our current knowledge doesn’t allow it. Extrapolate what you can but don’t convince yourself that what you make out of whole cloth is the Truth.

You may also show ME anything, and I"ll consider it

assuming it fits in ok to your version of the universe of course. If it doesn’t then you simply consider how to reject it.

So what you're saying here is .. what? That there's truth, but we could be deluded about it?

no Im saying the TRUTH is that which we can observe and study. And one of the things we can observe and study is that humans have a propencity toward delusion on a mass scale. They can be swallowed by their delusions and then all that is left is for each group to argue about the merits of each given delusion. That’s all im saying.

So again, your position appears to be "we'll never know" - so why do you have opinions on anything?

again my opinion is NEVER “well never know� but in fact is we DON’T know. So heres what we DO know so far. See the difference? And when you are constantly striving to find out more (and you haven’t decided that everything has been predetermined and there is no more knowledge to gain) then progress is possible. And opinions become relevant.

And do you see merit in this? What is the merit in this position?

because it leaves room for learning?

[Ithilgalad]

I can jump up and down and declare that the secret of the universe is that a giant blue pig made the earth when he was driving his motorcycle through the heavens

Sounds to me like good ol´ Terry Pratchett ... a giant turtle, speeding through the universe, with four elphants on top, carrying the (disc)world... perhaps THEY were created by the above mentioned PIG?

[Insidious Rex]

nah, thats just trickery. everyone knows its turtles all the way down.....

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
nah, thats just trickery. everyone knows its turtles all the way down.....

haha that's really funny. My dad always says that....(he's a philosopher, if that explains it )

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
That makes us sound like some elaborate ant farm. What is the point of making this vast enormous universe just to create these imperfect little beings on a speck of insignificant dust amid the trillions that are out there? That makes no sense to me at all.

God likes to use symbolism. He speaks to Christians through nature, as well as through other means. When we do the gardening, we can see parallels. When my Dad studies science, he finds parallels to Christianity in the behaviors of atoms and electrons. When I look at the heavens, I see the stars and see signs of God's glory, creative genius, and a sign further of how much greater he is than us.

It seems to me that it would be rather out of character for God to make us the center of the universe, which would make it seem as though we were the center of everything. In reality we are not, either in our lives or not. Our planet Earth circles the sun, which in many ways can represent God. The sun does not circle us.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Why would you focus on one particular grain of sand out of every grain of sand of every beach in the world? Why not just make an earth centered universe if we are his pets and we are made in his image and we are the special ones here? Why make this elaborate universe so vast and just filled with layers and layers of details that scream out to the fact that we arent celestial mega lottery winners

Teaching humility is a part of God's design. Often astronomers or people that study science deeply and find the incredible mathematics of it all are simply awe struck, and enter philosophy.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
but in fact we just are part of the NATURAL processies of said universe.

I find it absurd that a creative force would be so concerned with the nitty gritty gossipy details of a vanishingly insignificant portion of its creation.

You can only say it's insignificant from a human, nonbeliever perspective. Therefore this point has little real use as an argument.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
In fact I have a hard time even approaching the idea of an unfathomable creative force in the same sentence with a petty human like concern for what we do. it seems to me by definition a creative force capable of creating ALL this would be beyond describing in such terms.

With an author, you can often learn something about the person through the work that they write. God can teach us something about himself through what he creates.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
in fact powers beyond. we couldnt approach it. The problem is of course is that this agrument is forever cycling. For the logical reply as a christian should be well its because HE is all powerful so even though he is super big and powerful and can do everything and we are small he is still capable of being concerned with our every move BECAUSE he is all powerful! And where does that leave my argument that a creative force cant be approached in human terms?

That doesn't seem like an argument. It has no evidence to support it. It is based upon different assumptions from the Christian assumptions.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
How can you say that god in the whole bible never changes? It seems like night and day to me.

First of all, you can look in the New Testament too, and you'll see the same God. Look in the Book of Revelation, and you'll see God with a sword coming from his mouth. The End Times predict the righteous annihilation of probably billions of people.

In the Old and New Testaments, you can see examples of God's judgment. Christ's power empowered Paul once to strike a man blind, for speaking against God's way. Christ's power also killed two people through Simon Peter, people that lied to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ speaks many, many times about hell in the gospels.

Justice is a necessary part of God's nature. Mercy is a part of his nature too, enormously great mercy. It says in the Scripture that every wrong thing we do, we do to him. He knows exactly what we do to one another her on Earth, and we are doing it to him also. It is with great patience that he holds off from judging humanity, as he endures with us.

If you want to see another very strong parallel between God the Father and Jesus Christ, look at the ceremonial practices of the ancient Jews. The Passover and blood sacrifice was strongly symbolic of Christ's final sacrifice.

It was because justice had to be met that Jesus died on the cross. He couldn't just give cheap forgiveness to everyone. The judgment had to be met, the gun had to be shot. Yet because of his love, he took the blast himself.

In Old and New Testaments, we see a powerful emphasis upon justice. However, in both Testaments we also find a strong emphasis upon mercy.


In Ezekial (OT), God said, "Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked?"

In the Old Testament, God sent Jonah to Nineveh to give the great Assyrian city, with all of its exquisite tortures, oppulant wealth and crushing dominance, to preach repentance. He showed in his conversation with Jonah that he loved the city, that he cared very deeply about all that lived there.

In the Old Testament, God warned the Israelites repeatedly, again and again, to turn back to him through the prophets. He did not want to destroy them.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
The god of Abraham and the god of Moses and the god of Elijah etc., etc. is translated with the exact same language and personality as the god of jesus?

We can see very clear personality similarities between the Old and New Testaments.

The boy Jesus grew up within the bonds of time. He learned with his human mind, growing up as a normal boy would. He would have grown up with the language of the people around him, just as human babies would.

At the same time, he was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Even the few mentionings of his early life indicate that, such as where he says to his parents after they were frantically looking for him, "Did you not know I would be in my Father's house?"

[Rían]

Hi Lief! We're both up late We need to meet sometime! I think we're heading over to your neck of the woods in late June - I'll give you a heads-up

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
FIRST let me state this: There is no offence ment, whatsoever, to anybody, be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or a member of any other religion/philosophy !

I read your post, and find nothing offensive in it. Simply a belief I've heard before, and which I feel is more than a little flawed. Hmm. No offense meant there from me either, I hope you'll understand .

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
What I guess really matters is how deeply you FEEL YOUR religion and if you WILLINGLY have hurt other beings.

Everyone alive has willingly hurt other beings. How can humans judge in terms of degrees?

As for how much you feel your own religion. That certainly sounds nice. Nearly every person alive would very likely end up a happy man after death.

However, that view is saying that it is our beliefs or our emotions, or our feelings, which determine reality. We can see clearly that our beliefs, emotions or feelings do not determine reality around us on Earth.

If I really, truly and absolutely believe that you are God, able to do anything, creator of the universe, does that make it true? Even after we have both died, does my belief or sincerity make it true?

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
So it´s HEART and FREE WILL... but who said that the Christian Heaven and Hell concept is the ONE system? Maybe the buddhism nirvana is what awaits us... nobody cares for Jesus there . Everybody has to find the answer for himself... and I guess... everybody will find himself right... God/Allah/Whatever is omnipotent and any other omni- you can think of... so why should it be impossible for IT to provide each of us with their own concept of what comes after death? Even the atheists may be right by stating: There is NOTHING.

This IT would have to have simply deceived every human being incredibly, in order to provide them all with a happy ending. That view doesn't seem much in touch with reality, to me.

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
I, for myself, have started in a loose christianity (religion lessons at school), but soon found out that TODAY christianity (with the vatican, the infailability and the whole concept of the pope and his cardinals... and their councils) holds no lasting answers for me. 'Why should I go to church to talk to a dead piece of wood?' I thought a million times.

That makes sense to me. You wanted something more real that the Christianity you encountered; I think that makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
Then I started studying Celtic 'religion'... living gods, showing themselves in nature, breathing, living, dying, in an endless circle, just like mortal men. Alas, I found the concept of offering animals or even humans to the gods quite disturbing.

By the way, I think you put that last sentence in the wrong order . "I found the concept of offering animals or even humans to the gods quite disturbing" makes it sound as though you place a higher priority on the animals. Just pointed that out because I found it rather amusing . We have huge grammar debates over the dinner table at our house, sometimes.

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
Two or three years ago, Buddhism came into my life and I really enjoyed reading some books by the Dalai Lama. But this is still a little too complicated for me... but the essential parts I´ve memorized and since have tried to live them.

That's really good. I'm so glad that you apply your beliefs. So many people today simply are loosely part of their religion, and I'm glad you take your beliefs seriously.

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
So my religion/philosophy is a patchwork of multiple systems. And still I do believe I will NOT go the hell ... I will be reincarneted until I´ve learned all that I need to.

Why do you believe you will be reincarnated? Is there any evidence for reincarnation? (I am very curious to hear it, if there is)

What is the purpose of your learning and reincarnation, do you think? Is there something you're working up to?

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
The ultimate rule of my life is: Learn, whatever and whenever you may, do, whatever you like, but never ever hurt anybody else, and if you did so unintended, apologize and hope for absolution by the harmed person.

It sounds somewhat similar to Jesus' Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It falls somewhat short, though, in that it doesn't bear any mention of going to extra lengths for other people, to help them aside from what is needed. It looks to me actually as though this ultimate rule can potentially leave a person open to a very high degree of selfishness.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hi Lief! We're both up late We need to meet sometime! I think we're heading over to your neck of the woods in late June - I'll give you a heads-up

Yes, that would be lovely . What would be the purpose of your trip?

You might want to respond via PM; this conversation topic is rather off the debate .

[Lalaith_Elf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You're welcome Sorry I'm so wordy but it's hard to try to summarize complex topics. I tend to try to hit them from many sides and hope one side makes sense.

That's basically right. I would summarize it just a bit differently and say those that reject God will (by their own choice) go to hell.

In the Bible, Jesus talks about how there will be some surprises about who goes to heaven - some people that look like they would be going will NOT, and vice versa. IOW, it's a HEART issue - and God, who can see people's hearts, is the perfect judge. ANd that's the way it should be, IMO - a heart issue (by "heart" I mean the innermost real person that we are, not the outside picture we present to others).

So someone could say "I'm a Christian!" for whatever reason, but if it's not a true heart decision, God won't be fooled. And vice versa - someone who has never heard of Jesus could go to heaven based on the information that EVERYONE has available to them - the evidence of the stunning beauty and power of the universe around us, and the evidence of moral laws in the heart. (It's tricky to talk about this one - I'm NOT saying that everyone that worships some kind of God will be in heaven, but I AM saying that the Bible clearly teaches that Abraham, the "father of the Jews", was a Christian, and of course, he never heard of Jesus, now, did he, because Jesus hadn't been born yet! And the Bible says that EVERYONE has ENOUGH information to make a heart decision for or against Him. And this is only fair.)

And one of the clearest messages in the entire Bible is about God's tremendous love for us all - you, me, and everyone else. He wants a relationship with you - but he wants a freely-chosen relationship, not a robot relationship, and thus He gave us free will. Here on earth, it's not a face-to-face relationship, but for all eternity, it will be - and it will be glorious.

God loves you. I tell you this; and if you get a Bible and read it, the Bible will tell you this; and if you really listen to your heart, your heart will tell you that you're not just an accidental result of random natural purposes, but a valuable person who is designed for a loving relationship; and if you really look at the stars above and the flowers all around you, you'll see the evidence of a mighty Creator's hand - a Creator who loves beauty and majesty, and who is so abundantly filled with beauty and majesty that He scatters flowers even in places where they'll never be seen.

Yet people may freely chose to deny all this, and deny their very selves (which were created to be in loving relationship, but under God's authority - which only makes sense, as we are His creation and can never BE God) and choose to reject God. And the amazing thing is that God allows this free-will choice. He will not force us to love Him.

But He is always calling to our hearts that He loves us ... and is waiting for us to turn to Him.

Okay - thanks again, you've been a big help. Much appriciated!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Do you have any moral problems with squashing a mosquito? Do you have any moral problems with killing a human?

i don't have any problems with squashing a mosquito... but you rarely see a mosquito squash another mosquito... lifeforms rarely kill their own kind without good reason (with one big exception), because it is detrimental to there own existance

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i don't have any problems with squashing a mosquito... but you rarely see a mosquito squash another mosquito... lifeforms rarely kill their own kind without good reason (with one big exception), because it is detrimental to there own existance

hear, hear
animals fight over territory, food, and mates,
such things essential to their existence
humans fight over religion, and the ability to
rule over other people
not really essential to the survival of the species, eh?

[Twista]

What you need to take into account is that nothing really matters when it comes down to it. You either belive or you dont. you cant be converted, its probably a impossaiblity. You hear of people becoming bhuddists just because its 'in' at the moment. What do you all think of that?

Religion is all a irrevance in my mind, its a common goal most people want to belive, but find them selves not as they prove day in and out that they are 'sinners' in the eyes of thier God. People may say they follow a religion, but in truth there just kidding themselves..

[Ithilgalad]

@Lief:

No offence taken at all ... isn´t almost everything *flawed* in life?

Like the Buddhist philosophy 'commands' (IOW):
One should not talk, think or act evil, but always (try to) talk, think and act good.

The concept of karma seems to me somewhat like a bank account: you can de- and increase what you´ve got... and you will be judged by your karma 'account'... willingly hurting others definitely diminishes your 'deposit' of karma... so of course we have all done that once or even often... but we should not do so ... and I won´t deny that I have killed mosquitos, spiders, wasps... not to mention the millions of ants I´ve killed most likely walking on some patch of grass (but these won´t count I hope ´cause it was UNwillingly, I didn´t mean to step on them, and you won´t believe it but sometimes I really keep looking for them)... the question is: are animals as worthy as humans? Or are they just a kind of garment, so that we have some 'entertainment' (like with nightingales or butterflies)... Is killing a human a sin, but killing a bee not? Why not? Because they are not sentient, sapient entities? Why knows? Dolphins (I know that comparison has been discussed for years by more intelligent persons than I am) have highly developped brains... they have a language... they communicate with each other... you know all the arguments I guess... SORRY... Getting lost in my thoughts !

We can see clearly that our beliefs, emotions or feelings do not determine reality around us on Earth.

Really? Then suicide killer terrorists are not determined by their emotions? Is it their brains then that commend them to do it? Emotions ARE one of the strongest forces in the world, I believe, feelings decide a lot in life, so they definitely have an influence on our reality (just think of the strength a mother develops when her child is in danger... the power of love). Of course logical thinking is necessary too, but do YOU really always go with your brains and never with your guts ?

Thank you for adressing ME as GOD (how the hell did ya know it´s me ???)... there is a theory that EVERY SINGLE possibility in life is it´s own universe (not only Terry Pratchett came up with that )... so perhaps if YOU really believe in ME and have faith that I am GOD... you can make it happen... in one of the endless parallel universes... you may say: That´s most unlikely... but then again... isn´t it most unlikely that there is a heaven, where we all will be happy and worship GOD every day for eternity, and a hell where all others shall dwell endlessly?

This IT would have to have simply deceived every human being incredibly, in order to provide them all with a happy ending. That view doesn't seem much in touch with reality, to me.

You say it´s deceiving providing all of ITs children with happiness? Why? Because EVERYBODY has the possibility to be happy, no matter what faith they have, as long as they live by the rules (I don´t think bigotry in whatever religion is living by the rules)?.... Does the Bible indicate that all MUSLIM should go to hell? Or all JEWS?... Don´t think so...

it sound as though you place a higher priority on the animals

Well... I do *risingherrighteyebrow*... don´t you?
Just kidding ... English ain´t my mothertongue (as I´ve mentioned before on the board)... so if you find any mistakes I make... you can keep them!

My ultimate rule is just the number ONE, there are others... like: help others when they need it, make fun of yourself if others need cheering up ... oh well I´ve never catalogized them yet... they just kind of pop up *laugh*...

The reincarnation thinggy I´ll answer later... my one and only brain cell just insisted on a break !

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Twista
What you need to take into account is that nothing really matters when it comes down to it. You either belive or you dont. you cant be converted, its probably a impossaiblity. You hear of people becoming bhuddists just because its 'in' at the moment. What do you all think of that?

Religion is all a irrevance in my mind, its a common goal most people want to belive, but find them selves not as they prove day in and out that they are 'sinners' in the eyes of thier God. People may say they follow a religion, but in truth there just kidding themselves..

all too true... i think many more people hold beliefs than actually act in accordance with those beliefs