Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
That's a risk I'd have to take, I'm a believer in fate.......I'd prolly contract some crippling disease or something :/

It's really all the same thing: I don't see why you think the "reap what you sow" applies anymore to the death than to the utter humiliation etc.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
Ok, let me put it another way........What if a 16 yr old were sentenced to be hanged, it might take 30 yrs of going through appeals, taken to a higher court etc etc..........but the sentence has still been served.

If he were guilty of the heinous crimes he/she was accused of, yes. Or, if a jury decides that he/she should not be put to death, then the sentence is changed. That can happen also.

Do you think it's ok for a 16 yr old to do those things I posted earlier? Because he's just a kid, as you say? You are using the age as a factor and it isn't. This person committed horrible crimes, and the fact that he/she did it at age 16 should not matter. It is the degree of crime that matters.

However, as I said... they don't hang unless lethal injection can not be administered. And that doesn't happen.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Thank you.

Now do you see why I described that punishment as barbaric?......... I presumed that most of America would agree that hanging is an outdated and inhumane way to kill someone.

It shocked the hell out of me when I saw it on the internet site Sheeana linked to, in fact I'm sure it surprised you as well.

No - actually it didn't suprise me because I knew that the some states still had hanging on the books. I also knew that some allow for 16 year olds to face the death penalty. I also understand how the laws work and how many appeals would have to go through for the sentence to be carried out.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Do you think it's ok for a 16 yr old to do those things I posted earlier? Because he's just a kid, as you say? You are using the age as a factor and it isn't. This person committed horrible crimes, and the fact that he/she did it at age 16 should not matter. It is the degree of crime that matters.

Actually, I think age should have something to do with the penalty. The guilty party isn't as mature at 16, and is more likely to reform than someone older, who is more set in their ways.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
It shocked the hell out of me when I saw it on the internet site Sheeana linked to, in fact I'm sure it surprised you as well.

I'll admit, it shocked me that it was still on the books. However, I know that hanging and firing squads do not happen. Lethal injection is usually performed as a more human way of carrying out the sentence.

[Lief Erikson]

Anyway, Coney was right when he said the discussion is getting off topic.
Here's the link to the Entmoot thread on the death sentence:
http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...y&pagenumber=7

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

Originally posted by Ruinel

Do you think it's ok for a 16 yr old to do those things I posted earlier? Because he's just a kid, as you say? You are using the age as a factor and it isn't. This person committed horrible crimes, and the fact that he/she did it at age 16 should not matter. It is the degree of crime that matters.

but the age does matter, the people of a jury are human beings and are able to feel compassion towards the 16yr old if the lawyer defends him well enough....people are not going to give the same sentace to a 12yr old as they would to a 22yr old

[Coney]

However, as I said... they don't hang unless lethal injection can not be administered. And that doesn't happen.

Good.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Actually, I think age should have something to do with the penalty. The guilty party isn't as mature at 16, and is more likely to reform than someone older, who is more set in their ways.

mature enough to rape old ladies, torture and kill them? I would say mature enough to be put on death row.

I think it depends on the severity of the crime.

A 16 yr old who kills someone, or two people... no. A 16 year old serial killer, who tortures people, yeah.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn
people are not going to give the same sentace to a 12yr old as they would to a 22yr old

Right.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Actually, I think age should have something to do with the penalty. The guilty party isn't as mature at 16, and is more likely to reform than someone older, who is more set in their ways.

I disagree with you, there. I believe very much in justice, and that payment MUST be rendered for lawbreaking.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn
but the age does matter, the people of a jury are human beings and are able to feel compassion towards the 16yr old if the lawyer defends him well enough....people are not going to give the same sentace to a 12yr old as they would to a 22yr old

Yes and that's why a 16 year old in today's America would never be sentences to death (by hanging or otherwise) unless the crime was so hurrendous.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
2) ok.
3) ok.
7) Because the Catholic Church was around longer.
8) Nah... she's a true Christian all right. There's always meaning behind the rituals. She's pretty devout.

Don't sell yourself short. I've read your posts. Trust me on this one, I've read posts far more dimwitted than yours. errr... that's not what I meant. You are not dimwitted.

Eep. Forgot to reply.

7) Beg pardon?
8) Someone who is religious (and goes to Christian church, and all that) isn't necessarily a truly Christian.

[Lief Erikson]

Ruinel, Gwaimir, I've responded to both of your opinions on the death penalty in the other thread.

Ruinel, I don't know whether your sister is a Christian or not. But Gwaimir is completely correct about there being a difference between someone who is merely devoted, and someone who is born again.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Eep. Forgot to reply.

7) Beg pardon?
8) Someone who is religious (and goes to Christian church, and all that) isn't necessarily a truly Christian.

7) Because the Catholic Church has been around longer, it has been attributed to more bad stuff than the other christian sects.
8) She is a christian. Trust me.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Ruinel, Gwaimir, I've responded to both of your opinions on the death penalty in the other thread.

Ruinel, I don't know whether your sister is a Christian or not. But Gwaimir is completely correct about there being a difference between someone who is merely devoted, and someone who is born again.

Thanks but I promised myself I'd get back to WarCraft III. Sorry, I can't play with you people anymore, you'll have to pay with yourselves.

[Ararax]

well man corrupts, if you look at the church, in the beginning it offered hope to the masses then it became a position of power, and evil men took avantage of that power. blame the people not the theory behind it if they dont follow that theory.

well yes im sure your friend is devout but probably misled, if someone believes that murder is good, you cant question their devotion, just what their following.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
She is a christian. Trust me.

She plainly is presenting a bad witness though, judging by your reactions and how you've spoken of her. There are born again Christians who leave booklets around the house in discreet places for their family members, and they leave a bad taste in the mouth. Born again or not, you can still mess up. Does she have spiritual experiences, or God's love?

Living God's love is more important than preaching it.

Now, I will defend myself from the argument you have made against me as an evangelist or preacher myself. This is a religion thread! I don't evangelize my nonChristian friends, at least not now. I try to be a good and considerate person. If religion came up in a conversation between myself and my friends, I would talk to them about it.

This, meanwhile, is a religion thread. It is where people congregate who wish to discuss religion, learn about different people's beliefs, and perhaps debate them. Thus, I feel myself justified in calling up evidence for Christianity's defense. The born again experience necessarily must be a capstone of that argument, but you and HOBBIT are definitely not likely to seek it.

I have brought up evidence about the Bible, showing how it is separate from other books and demonstrating why people might want to consider it as they seek truth. You have responded with a demand that I do something I never was planning to do- namely, prove God's existence. The only way for God's existence to be PROVED to an individual, is for them to try to get to know him personally, and as you are far from willing to make any attempt to make that step, there is no reasonable way that I can accomplish what you request.

Meanwhile, I wasn't even posting those things for your benefit, or for HOBBIT's, for I could see that neither of you would gain anything from them. Artanis expressed interest, and I believe one or two others did, too. I said from the outset that it wasn't proof that the Bible was God's Word, but was evidence to support your looking. And if you look, THEN and only then will you find.

"Ask and you will receive. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened to you."

I have knocked, asked, and sought. I have received. People on this thread don't believe, but they are interested, else they wouldn't be on this thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss religion (See the first post), so if an individual isn't willing to do that, they have no good reason for being on this thread. Note that here I'm not arguing against the death sentence discussion, which was a temporary diversion and I accept, but am arguing in defense of my posts to HOBBIT and Ruinel.

So I go to what they do accept (Science and archaeological and documentary evidence) to show people that seeking Christ might not be a waste of time. I brought up the testimonies of myself, my Mom and Dad and some friends of the family as evidence of born again experiences, though I mentioned also the numerous books that have been sold and are widely bought on the subject of God's power.

My posts on the Bible were to show that physical events line up with what the Scripture is claimed to be. My post wasn't meant to prove anything- the only ways to learn 100% proof of God's existence is to meet him yourself.

So, I trust I have explained myself now? And also, I would like once again to bring to the attention of HOBBIT and Ruinel that this whole thread is for religious discussion. In that case, becoming fiercely opposed to my bringing up the very capstone of my faith (Christ) and my greatest evidence for his existence (The ability of men to meet him) is out of line.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ararax
well man corrupts, if you look at the church, in the beginning it offered hope to the masses then it became a position of power, and evil men took avantage of that power. blame the people not the theory behind it if they dont follow that theory.

I agree with you there, for the most part. You did leave out an important step though . Separation of Church and State dissolved almost all of the political power the Church had.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ararax
1) well man corrupts, if you look at the church, in the beginning it offered hope to the masses then it became a position of power, and evil men took avantage of that power. blame the people not the theory behind it if they dont follow that theory.

2) well yes im sure your friend is devout but probably misled, if someone believes that murder is good, you cant question their devotion, just what their following.

1) exactly. Since god is manmade and church is manmade, it follows that both of these would have the same corruption as mankind.

2) you are not talking to me I presume. The person I was talking about is my sister, and she does not believe that murder is good.

Leif Erikson: yeah... you do (evangelize), go back and reread your own posts.
I have no idea why you are now attacking my sister. Now, she isn't even a real christian because she gives up something she likes for Lent? You confuse me.

The rest of your post is too long for me to bother reading right now. And I have a game waiting for me.