Iraq

[Coney]

Originally posted by Spock
The US should return to the policy of isolationism. Return troops from all EU countries, cut foreign aid out, and put troops on our borders to protect our country. Let the rest fight amongst themselves as to how they'll stop a dicator .
As for the UN, it is UNimportant and we should pull out of it and have it shipped to France. We don't need it as it's ineffectual, highly critical of all the US does and is run by such giants as K.A. and giant states like Angola, Cammeron and Syria. What a joke.
Lets see how the world does without our presence.

That's the spirit! Get those borders closed!

Why don't you build a nice foritified wall around the country while your at it?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Illegal for a country to attack another for no clear reason

We have multiple of reasons - you just don't like them. You'd rather believe a tyranical liar that he doesn't have chemical or biological weapons and that he is a leader for peace.

America is so hyprocritical- they were the ones who wanted the League of Nations to be set up- to 'settle disputes between countries peacefully
Now the ignore the UN

The UN and the League of Nations are too different things. The League of Nations went down because they were just as ineffective. We have never had to go to the UN before - we didn't go for Bosnia and we don't have to go for now.

They should at least allow a little more time for the weapons inspectors and for the UN to come up with the best decision, so that the least lives are taken (especially innocent ones).

Oh - you mean 12 years wasn't enough time? 17 ignored resolutions weren't enough?? How much time is enough??? How many resolutions??? Do you honestly think Hussein would be doing anything without the threat of war looming over the border?? He point blank said back in September that he would NOT allow any weapons inspectors in. It took America's show of force to make him realise the mistake in this thinking.

Because we know that America bombs countries, then spends tiny amounts to repair it compared to the cost they spend on military, i.e. Afghanistan

Don't even start with whether we should have gone into Afganistan. They're lucky we just didn't lob a nuclear bomb down on them after the Taliban decided to protect Al Qaeda. No - instead the US military worked around the civilians and spent billions more to try protecting the Afgan citizens.

In the words of my fabulous history teacher 'war gives a whole new generation of people another reason to hate', as will this one

I guess we shouldn't have gone into Bosnia. By the way - I don't if you';ve bother listening to Bin Ladin's earlier speeches - but he had always indicated that it wasn't because we were strong that we were being attacked - it was becuase when the going got tough - we'd turn tail and run. This time - the middle East fanatics have taken the war to our shores and we're going to take them down on their's. We're NOT going to back down just because the world thinks we should. This is for OUR national interests - and the only people our representative have to listen to are the AMERICAN people.

In conclusion - are saying that it was right - in hindisght - to wait for 9/11 to happen before getting the worlds "permission" to take on Bin Ladin?? The world was outraged we were attacking him after he blew up our embassies.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
That's true..
It's probably best to let an actual dictator who holds nuclear weaponry wait while he happily blackmails your govenment for aid

So we're supposed to give in to his blackmail? If the weapons inspectors were doing their jobs - he wouldn't have had a nuclear program on the side. So much for containment working.

I love how the world thinks that the US should work unilaterally with North Korea - but seems so upset with us at even the hint that we would act unilaterally with Iraq.

[Spock]

...."I love the smell of napalm in the morning"

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Illegal for a country to attack another for no clear reason
America is so hyprocritical- they were the ones who wanted the League of Nations to be set up- to 'settle disputes between countries peacefully
Now the ignore the UN
They should at least allow a little more time for the weapons inspectors and for the UN to come up with the best decision, so that the least lives are taken (especially innocent ones). Because we know that America bombs countries, then spends tiny amounts to repair it compared to the cost they spend on military, i.e. Afghanistan

In the words of my fabulous history teacher 'war gives a whole new generation of people another reason to hate', as will this one

You are so in the dark it isn't even funny. How can you say the US isn't helping Afghanistan? First of all read the report Kharzi released a few weeks back how he commented on how things were better than 6 months earlier because of the help of the US. We liberated those people for christ's sake. Also your history teacher needs a history lesson. I have a history degree and any right-minded Historian knows that war is a necessity to survive. War is a tool to provide a means to achieve peace for the greater good. If your history teacher knows anything about History, then he/she should look back upon the countless years where war has garnered peace...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Spock
The US should return to the policy of isolationism. Return troops from all EU countries, cut foreign aid out, and put troops on our borders to protect our country. Let the rest fight amongst themselves as to how they'll stop a dicator .
As for the UN, it is UNimportant and we should pull out of it and have it shipped to France. We don't need it as it's ineffectual, highly critical of all the US does and is run by such giants as K.A. and giant states like Angola, Cammeron and Syria. What a joke.
Lets see how the world does without our presence.

/me stands up and claps!!

I never have agreed with Isolationism, until I've seen opinions by people across the world. The world would be lost and would become a barren wasteland full of warlords if the US closed itself off from everyone. Maybe that is what we need to do just to show the world how important we really are to them...

[congressmn]

nah, u r pushing it too much.

America gives aid n all. but not so much as to stall the economies if it cuts it.

and its policeman like attitude is rather just a menace. nothing to be proud pf.

In fact on the other hand, AMerica needs to be taught a lesson. How important the world is to America, will be made clear when America indeed is isolated.

so get ready America. your time has come.

*i have nothing against america, i speak here as a world citizen*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by congressmn
nah, u r pushing it too much.

America gives aid n all. but not so much as to stall the economies if it cuts it.

You think not. 25% of the support that the UN gets - comes from America. What are they going to do if we cut off all aid and start looking at ourselves. What is India going to do with Pakistan if we just let everything go???

and its policeman like attitude is rather just a menace. nothing to be proud pf.

Well then the rest of te world should stop hiding behind our military. The rest of the world treats the US like we're a bully - until they need us to help them beat up someone who is causing problems. Europe is like a scared quivering child on the play ground hiding behind it's protector and just points to the problems that they want us to take care of (Bosnia as an example - we tried getting Europe to handle it). If we try taking care of any problems that affect us - then we're just being a bully.

In fact on the other hand, AMerica needs to be taught a lesson. How important the world is to America, will be made clear when America indeed is isolated.

You think the world won't go to hell in a hand basket if we stopped putting out all the fires around the world???

so get ready America. your time has come.

Our time has come for what? Sounds like something Bin ladin would spew out.

*i have nothing against america, i speak here as a world citizen*

Sure - you and everyone else that has to say "honest I'm not anti-american - I just want to see you fail and fall flat on your face."

I've thought the US should become more isolationist for a LONG time and no Coney - nothing was mentioned about closing our borders. It would be more difficult to come in - we can't have every refuge from the war torn world knocking our door. If that happened - we really would have to become imperialist - so we could be more land in order to give homes to all of them.

We should pull our military out of the world arena - let France defend the world. It is sort of funny though - before North Korea started acting up - there were anti-American protests repeatedly throughout South Korea. Now they've had huge pro-American demonstrations. Maybe they realised again - with the help of North Korea - that without us there - there isn't too much to prevent NK from coming over the border. Who's going to come to their rescue - France? Europe? They can't even protect their own backyards without our help.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You think not. 25% of the support that the UN gets - comes from America. What are they going to do if we cut off all aid and start looking at ourselves. What is India going to do with Pakistan if we just let everything go???

Well then the rest of te world should stop hiding behind our military. The rest of the world treats the US like we're a bully - until they need us to help them beat up someone who is causing problems. Europe is like a scared quivering child on the play ground hiding behind it's protector and just points to the problems that they want us to take care of (Bosnia as an example - we tried getting Europe to handle it). If we try taking care of any problems that affect us - then we're just being a bully.

You think the world won't go to hell in a hand basket if we stopped putting out all the fires around the world???

Our time has come for what? Sounds like something Bin ladin would spew out.

Sure - you and everyone else that has to say "honest I'm not anti-american - I just want to see you fail and fall flat on your face."

I've thought the US should become more isolationist for a LONG time and no Coney - nothing was mentioned about closing our borders. It would be more difficult to come in - we can't have every refuge from the war torn world knocking our door. If that happened - we really would have to become imperialist - so we could be more land in order to give homes to all of them.

We should pull our military out of the world arena - let France defend the world. It is sort of funny though - before North Korea started acting up - there were anti-American protests repeatedly throughout South Korea. Now they've had huge pro-American demonstrations. Maybe they realised again - with the help of North Korea - that without us there - there isn't too much to prevent NK from coming over the border. Who's going to come to their rescue - France? Europe? They can't even protect their own backyards without our help.

Christ Jdevil, Bin Laden was the result of America.

Bosnia eh? thats why they are still struggling huh?

America only cares for itself. which is alright.

on India, doing things tp pakistan. They would do it ne way. America or otherwise.

America is important, but not something the world will die without.

There is hunger and poverty on earth.

America spends in luxury.

on a second note, i think the world can well do without all this, evryhting going america's way. evrything. the natural resources, the money.

think about it Jdevil.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by congressmn
Christ Jdevil, Bin Laden was the result of America.

Oh - your one of those people who think that we caused Bin ladin to attack us. Do you know that everytime something new happens he blames it on America? He even used bosnia as a way of saying Americans hated Muslims. He seemed to be leaving out the part that we were PROTECTING them from slaughter. We housed many muslim refuges here in New Jersey and New Jerseyans donated tons to help them out.

Bosnia eh? thats why they are still struggling huh?

There are still concentration camps and mass executions?? Wow - why doesn't the UN do something then.

America only cares for itself. which is alright.

Glad you approve of us looking after ourselves first. If we didn't - no one else would.

on India, doing things tp pakistan. They would do it ne way. America or otherwise.

Yeah sure - if that's what you want to believe. Both sides would be a sink hole right now because of the nuclear arms race between the two countries if the US didn't always have to come between the two.

America is important, but not something the world will die without.

Maybe not - but the world was a lot worse before America.

There is hunger and poverty on earth.

America spends in luxury.

Why shouldn't we spend on outselves? Are we the donation center for the world? There are homeless people in the US - I care about them first. Sorry - but I'm sure you care about your neighbor or family member before you care about someone you don't know. The rest of the world just looks to the US for handouts - pure and symbol.

on a second note, i think the world can well do without all this, evryhting going america's way. evrything. the natural resources, the money.

think about it Jdevil.

I have thought about it - and you make no sense. We have created society which allows us to make a better life for ourselves. You think the money we have is just handed to us????? or are you claiming we stole it like so many European countries did?

We're not going to cut ourselves off from trading partners - but we should stop protecting the world. I have repeatedly argued that we should pull our troops out of the world, out of Europe, out of the Middle East and out of Asia. We should just worry about the Western Hemisphere. We don't need the Middle East oil - we only get a fraction of our oil there. It's Europe wchih gets over 50% of it's oil from the Middle East and Japan gets over 70%. Most of our oil comes from Canada, Venezuela and ourselves.

[congressmn]

[QUOTE]I have thought about it - and you make no sense. We have created society which allows us to make a better life for ourselves. You think the money we have is just handed to us????? or are you claiming we stole it like so many European countries did?

We're not going to cut ourselves off from trading partners - but we should stop protecting the world. I have repeatedly argued that we should pull our troops out of the world, out of Europe, out of the Middle East and out of Asia. We should just worry about the Western Hemisphere. We don't need the Middle East oil - we only get a fraction of our oil there. It's Europe wchih gets over 50% of it's oil from the Middle East and Japan gets over 70%. Most of our oil comes from Canada, Venezuela and ourselves.

*********************************************

only thing i agree with you so far, of u guys r3eceding from places where u dont belong.

And about the oil. r u sure?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by congressmn

only thing i agree with you so far, of u guys r3eceding from places where u dont belong.

Where exactly don't we belong by the way? We're in South Korea by the invitation of them. We're in Saudi Arabia at the invitation of them. We're in Europe at the invitation of them. If anyone doesn't want us in their countries - then take it up with their governments.

I wish we would pull out our troops - there is talk of pulling our troops out of Germany. 70,000 are stationed. You think that won't have economic affect on the local economy??? Germany's unemployment rate is already 10.5%

And about the oil. r u sure?

Yes I am sure.

[sun-star]

Spock wrote:

The US should return to the policy of isolationism. Return troops from all EU countries, cut foreign aid out, and put troops on our borders to protect our country. Let the rest fight amongst themselves as to how they'll stop a dicator .

And some other Americans agreed.

Fine. Isolate yourselves if you want to. It's your choice. But it would of course confirm every stereotype, every prejudice that the world has of America - that they don't care about anyone other than themselves, that they're selfish and thoughtless and ignorant. So if you don't care about anyone other than yourselves, go ahead and be isolationist.

But I can't seriously believe that you think America should even consider doing this. America is far too great a country to be so inward-looking.

It is of course correct to say that the American government was elected to protect the interests of the American people. That's true of any country - Tony Blair said the same thing about Britain just yesterday. But does that make it right for a nation to ignore the views of any other nation? Or to ignore the views of every nation in the world, which is effectively what isolationism amounts to?

What I'm trying to say (very inarticulately) is that the US does not operate entirely in a vaccuum. Nor can it, even if it wants to. Whatever you do affects the whole world, whether you care about its support or not. That's simply a fact. Therefore, the rest of the world is entitled to an opinion on what you do.

Thank God the current American Government doesn't think like some of you here. They can see the importance of international cooperation, and don't suggest America abandons the rest of us entirely. And I for one am grateful for it.

BTW, just in passing, it does seem like some of you hate Europe far more than Europe hates you.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Fine. Isolate yourselves if you want to. It's your choice. But it would of course confirm every stereotype, every prejudice that the world has of America - that they don't care about anyone other than themselves, that they're selfish and thoughtless and ignorant. So if you don't care about anyone other than yourselves, go ahead and be isolationist.

Well if we constantly have to hear how terrible we our and how all we try doing is controlling the world and all we get is complaints from everyone - why should we care what happens to other countries?? It's our tax money.

But I can't seriously believe that you think America should even consider doing this. America is far too great a country to be so inward-looking.

Chances of us going isolationist are slim - we're too tied up with our trading partners. If Europe or Japan doesn't get oil - it'll cause economic disaster for those countries. It'll then affect us. Yes - our self interest again.

Self interest is the only reason why France opposes the war - because they get billions in smuggliung deals. Not to mention they would like to be the "ruler" of Europe and they know they can't do that as long as the US stands in the way.

It is of course correct to say that the American government was elected to protect the interests of the American people. That's true of any country - Tony Blair said the same thing about Britain just yesterday. But does that make it right for a nation to ignore the views of any other nation? Or to ignore the views of every nation in the world, which is effectively what isolationism amounts to?

We're not ignoring the views of other countries. If we were doing that we would have had this over with and Hussein would have been ousted back in September. Instead we submitted another resolution which was adopted unamously by the security council. Everyone says that Iraq has not complied and everyone says that he hasn't complied to any of the previous 16. Now the world wants another resolution - which the US has the majority of the security Council on OUR side and France says regardless - they're vetoing. Who is acting more in their self interest? France went as far to tell any European nation who disagreed with them that they should just shut up. I didn't hear much of an outcry from the "ani-war" people on Chirac's beligerance.

What I'm trying to say (very inarticulately) is that the US does not operate entirely in a vaccuum. Nor can it, even if it wants to. Whatever you do affects the whole world, whether you care about its support or not. That's simply a fact. Therefore, the rest of the world is entitled to an opinion on what you do.

You are entitled to an opinion - you just don't have a right to control US interests or to control our government. Our government works for us. Did we not go to the UN? Which by the way - was not required. Thanks to France - allies are fracturing. It'll be some time before the rift with France is mended. Germany wasn't really a hugely close ally and we defeated them during World War II. Of course without our help they would still be living in third world conditions or living under the Soviet Union.

Thank God the current American Government doesn't think like some of you here. They can see the importance of international cooperation, and don't suggest America abandons the rest of us entirely. And I for one am grateful for it.

Well there has been a backlash against France. Also - I thought we policed the world too much??? If we move our troops out - and stop wasting our tax dollars protecting people who obviously have complete contempt for us - why should anyone care? I thought that was what the world wants. I would rather our tax dollars go to helping our own people out - instead of protecting people who march and paint nazi sympols on our flags and compare our president to Hitler - yet turn a blind eye to the real tyrant. It's no secret in America that most Europeans consider us more of a threat than Hussein - so what do we have to lose now?

BTW, just in passing, it does seem like some of you hate Europe far more than Europe hates you.

If your imply this to me - I don't hate Europe or Europeans. I'm just a little tired of the fact that everything that goes wrong is our fault - anything that goes right is because of someone else.

When people start demonstrating against Hussein and demand that he give up his weapons and disarm, when people demonstrate against the Palestinian Suicide Bombers - and stop only putting the blame on Israel - then I might believe the world appreciates the good the US does.

[Belle]

Nobody wants to go to war, and I was against it at first. But the fact is people in Iraq are suffering and need aid, that just won't get through while Hussein is there. It is about time that something was done and i'm glad that the USA and England are so far working to try and rid the world of a person who is causing so much pain.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by congressmn
Christ Jdevil, Bin Laden was the result of America.

Bosnia eh? thats why they are still struggling huh?

America only cares for itself. which is alright.

on India, doing things tp pakistan. They would do it ne way. America or otherwise.

America is important, but not something the world will die without.

There is hunger and poverty on earth.

America spends in luxury.

on a second note, i think the world can well do without all this, evryhting going america's way. evrything. the natural resources, the money.

think about it Jdevil.

Spend on Luxury? Then why is it, that America is the only country in the world helping war torn and disease ridden Africa? Huh? Tell me that! At least we are helping them out with their poverty levels and the fact that Aids is taking over the continent, we are the only one's actively trying to help them. But of course the wool is drawn over your eyes with that and yet we only spend things for luxury and don't help anyone out. Give it a rest and open your eyes! I am sick of bs coming out of the mouths of people who just don't know. You should be thankful we have warmed the ties between your country and Pakistan and that for a change there might be peace in your region. Believe me, Americans don't want to help people like you anymore, just because of your piss-poor attitudes towards us and how everything is overlooked that we do good for this world. Instead it is always the pointing finger instead of the thank you.

JD made a great point, I noticed it too in everything I've read and saw. One week South Korea wanted us out and was anti-American, the next week when North Korean threats grew stronger, thousands of South Korean people cheered on the American troops and thanked them. Funny how one week could change the opinions of an entire people

[sun-star]

jerseydevil: why should we care what happens to other countries?? It's our tax money.

Because:

sun-star: Whatever you do affects the whole world, whether you care about its support or not. That's simply a fact.

America is an incredibly powerful country. If you go to war, or become isolationist, it affects everyone. So we care about you, even if you don't care about us. And

I thought we policed the world too much???

I never said that.

If your imply this to me - I don't hate Europe or Europeans. I'm just a little tired of the fact that everything that goes wrong is our fault - anything that goes right is because of someone else.

I wasn't implying that to you specifically at all (if only English had a plural for "you"!). If you hated Europeans I don't suppose you would be replying to me. You're allowed to care more about America than Europe - I certainly care most about Britain, since it's my home I was just suggesting that intolerance and prejudice can go both ways across the Atlantic. Americans are not the innocent victims of the evil prejudices of other nationalities. They can make mistakes sometimes. So can the British, even I admit that

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by sun-star
Spock wrote:



And some other Americans agreed.

Fine. Isolate yourselves if you want to. It's your choice. But it would of course confirm every stereotype, every prejudice that the world has of America - that they don't care about anyone other than themselves, that they're selfish and thoughtless and ignorant. So if you don't care about anyone other than yourselves, go ahead and be isolationist.

But I can't seriously believe that you think America should even consider doing this. America is far too great a country to be so inward-looking.

It is of course correct to say that the American government was elected to protect the interests of the American people. That's true of any country - Tony Blair said the same thing about Britain just yesterday. But does that make it right for a nation to ignore the views of any other nation? Or to ignore the views of every nation in the world, which is effectively what isolationism amounts to?

What I'm trying to say (very inarticulately) is that the US does not operate entirely in a vaccuum. Nor can it, even if it wants to. Whatever you do affects the whole world, whether you care about its support or not. That's simply a fact. Therefore, the rest of the world is entitled to an opinion on what you do.

Thank God the current American Government doesn't think like some of you here. They can see the importance of international cooperation, and don't suggest America abandons the rest of us entirely. And I for one am grateful for it.

BTW, just in passing, it does seem like some of you hate Europe far more than Europe hates you.

Please believe me when I say this. I do not want to be isolationist. The only reason I've said it is because people are so ungrateful towards us. No matter what we do we are wrong. It's like you even said, if we become isolationist we get those stereotypes to stick. If we keep up the free trade game and continue with the way we are, we are the big bad evil conquering country. It is a no win situation for America. I realize how isolationism would be bad for us, however it would be just as bad for the world. However, that is the reasons for my statement, just to prove a point out of spite (spite rules by the way ) to show the world how important we really are. It's like the age old adage, "You don't realize how important something is, until it is gone."

About Europe, I love Europe. My roots come from Europe. I have always felt a tie to my European ancestry, so I don't hate Europe at all, I am just disappointed in a select few countries. I don't classify Europe as the countries I am disappointed in, I am intelligent enough to realize they are all separate entities...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by sun-star
They can be as annoying as the French sometimes.

Now Sun-star, we know that isn't true

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Now Sun-star, we know that isn't true

Well, it is difficult