REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
As I recall god hardened the Pharos heart on purpose in order to bring about what was his plan all along.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, many times ...

[Rían]

Hey, IRex, you have NOT fixed up your post where you incorrectly "quoted" me yet I know you like fairness, so would you please edit it and correct it, or add something that clarifies that you are NOT quoting me?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
maybe he means that you've never had to stand toe to toe with the klingons while the future of the entire federation hangs in balance

My only hope would be that i would die well!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
My only hope would be that i would die well!

we are the borg
resistance is futile
you will be assimilated
we will add your technological distinctiveness to our own
you will adapt to service us

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hey, IRex, you have NOT fixed up your post where you incorrectly "quoted" me yet I know you like fairness, so would you please edit it and correct it, or add something that clarifies that you are NOT quoting me?

when you say "but I really think that staying in the "well, we'll never know for sure" mindset is a cop-out" you are in essence saying that the agnostic stance is a cop out and therefor lesser. Thats certainly how I percieve it. So excuse me for being quite taken aback. I dont at all think the only two possibilities are theism or atheism. yes i DO find that insulting. And limited thinking. The possibilities are not for you to say quite frankly. And I have always been the one to say hey there COULD be a creator. Its within the realm of possibilities. I dont snap it away from the start. thats annoying.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
...you will be assimilated...

I didn't see the series finale of Voyager, but I REALLY WISH they had ended it with Chikota & 7 of 9 walking away from the altar after getting married, 7-o-9 turns to C and in a husky voice says with a wink, "YOU... will be assimilated!" THAT'S how they shoulda ended the show!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Valandil, you mentioned being a born-again-Christian earlier. What is that exactly? I curious, I've heard the term before but I don't know what it means.

Nurvi, let me give it a shot - it looks like Val is tied up, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind (altho you might prefer an explanation from him, because I'm so wordy!)

The term comes from a passage in the Bible in the Gospel of John, chapter 3, where Jesus is talking to a man named Nicodemus, and Jesus opens his side of the conversation by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus is understandably confused and asks how a man can enter into his mother's womb and be born again (Jesus tended to say very thought-provoking things!), and Jesus goes on to explain that He is talking about a spiritual birth, and says "...whoever believes may in Him [Jesus] have eternal life." And then comes the famous verse: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

I think the term started being used because people thought they were Christians if they were merely going to church, or if they were somewhat trying to be "good", when in fact, their hearts were rejecting God, and they were NOT Christians (which means "imitators of Christ", or "little Christs"). Back in the days when Christians were persecuted, no one would say they were a Christian if they weren't. But here in America, and other places where there is no persecution (or not much) people would say they were Christians because it was the "good" thing to say. But it was not true - in their hearts, they were rejecting God and His ways. When you choose to become a Christian, you immediately know the difference, so born-again Christians would say they were born-again, a phrase found in the Bible, to differentiate themselves.

So - what does it mean? On to the next post ...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
when you say "but I really think that staying in the "well, we'll never know for sure" mindset is a cop-out" you are in essence saying that the agnostic stance is a cop out and therefor lesser.

Unless I'm totally missing something (which can happen), you have again mis-quoted me. I don't see ANYWHERE where I wrote what you put in quotes and your first mis-quoting of me appears to actually have been something brownie said, but without the "not".

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Valandil
I didn't see the series finale of Voyager, but I REALLY WISH they had ended it with Chikota & 7 of 9 walking away from the altar after getting married, 7-o-9 turns to C and in a husky voice says with a wink, "YOU... will be assimilated!" THAT'S how they shoulda ended the show!

i saw end of series, and it was EXCELLENT
truly brilliant

[Ithilgalad]

FIRST let me state this: There is no offence ment, whatsoever, to anybody, be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or a member of any other religion/philosophy !

Ok... Do you really think it matters whether you pray to God, Jahwe, Allah, The Goddess... or your Inner Self?... Isn´t it all quite the same?

Humans tend to look for a greater plan. That´s ok with me. I do that, too . But who is to judge what´s the best plan? Humans? IMHO we humans are not qualified to do so... we don´t have any means of seeing the whole thing... all we see is the small part in our neighbourhood... just like: We are of course uncomfortable when seeing or hearing about starving children in Africa... but when the news have passed and The Simpsons/Sex and the City/Whatever is aired, we easily forget about them... otherwise I guess we would all go crazy , all the time thinking about the *wrongs* of the world. And I do believe it´s rather the same with religion. Hinduism has rules that may seem strange and almost *diabolic* to many Christians... but these worked well / still do for Hindus (I´ve talked to a few... they on the other hand think that Christians are on the wrong side of the track ).

(Some) Muslims believe that the Koran holds the ultimate truth, for Allah (God) gave it to the world after all the other books of faith. They see Jesus as a prophet like Moses, but nothing more than that.

What I guess really matters is how deeply you FEEL YOUR religion and if you WILLINGLY have hurt other beings.

So it´s HEART and FREE WILL... but who said that the Christian Heaven and Hell concept is the ONE system? Maybe the buddhism nirvana is what awaits us... nobody cares for Jesus there . Everybody has to find the answer for himself... and I guess... everybody will find himself right... God/Allah/Whatever is omnipotent and any other omni- you can think of... so why should it be impossible for IT to provide each of us with their own concept of what comes after death? Even the atheists may be right by stating: There is NOTHING.

I, for myself, have started in a loose christianity (religion lessons at school), but soon found out that TODAY christianity (with the vatican, the infailability and the whole concept of the pope and his cardinals... and their councils) holds no lasting answers for me. 'Why should I go to church to talk to a dead piece of wood?' I thought a million times. Then I started studying Celtic 'religion'... living gods, showing themselves in nature, breathing, living, dying, in an endless circle, just like mortal men. Alas, I found the concept of offering animals or even humans to the gods quite disturbing. Two or three years ago, Buddhism came into my life and I really enjoyed reading some books by the Dalai Lama. But this is still a little too complicated for me... but the essential parts I´ve memorized and since have tried to live them. So my religion/philosophy is a patchwork of multiple systems. And still I do believe I will NOT go the hell ... I will be reincarneted until I´ve learned all that I need to. The ultimate rule of my life is: Learn, whatever and whenever you may, do, whatever you like, but never ever hurt anybody else, and if you did so unintended, apologize and hope for absolution by the harmed person.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Unless I'm totally missing something (which can happen), you have again mis-quoted me. I don't see ANYWHERE where I wrote what you put in quotes and your first mis-quoting of me appears to actually have been something brownie said, but without the "not".

Huh?? Well Rian it has your little picture thingee right next to that post so I can only ASSUME that you wrote it. Sue me. But lets just assume it’s the message board phantom doing weird things. Ok. BUT then you went on to say in another post:

And IMO, it's a bit of a cop-out because I think it's a more right and courageous position to take a stand on your beliefs, and act on them, instead of just saying "we'll never know." IOW, be a force for what you think is good.

and worst of all:

Agnostics like to pull out "we'll never know for sure" like some kind of a trump card. Well, it's not - and it's certainly not news! I say - use your senses, use your brain, give it some time, and make a decision about your beliefs, then ACT on your beliefs for what you believe to be right and good. Make a difference with your life! Stay open to other thoughts, too, and keep thinking things through, and see if perhaps maybe you need to change your decision if you find sufficient new evidence. But don't STAY in a permanant "we'll never know" place

And I cant imagine you didn’t think I wouldn’t reply after all that. I HAVE used my brain thanks very much. I certainly wanted to point that out. Rereading it yet again I find this statement to be unbelievable even now. Good grief. Your assumptions are both incorrect at their base and frankly insulting. That agnostics have some kind of dead end belief system about reality and they should “use their brain� and come up with a better one. I don’t personally think you should come up with a different way of looking at the world Rian. Why do you say I should?

[Rían]

To Nurvi, con't -

I guess the summary of how one becomes a born-again Christian (this is hard to type, I wish I could talk to you instead; PM me if you'd like my phone number) is basically acknowledging the following truths, and choosing to act on them:

1. Altho you might generally be a "good" person, you have also willfully chosen to sin at times. And "sin" just means going against God's loving plans for our own good - things like that little lie you told that helped you get something, or the time you were really glad when something bad happened to a person you didn't like, or when you selfishly took more of something good and cut someone else out, or murder, too, of course. But in your heart, you KNOW that you did wrong. That's what guilt is - a pointer to you that you have done wrong. And sin seperates us from a holy God who loves us tremendously.

2. Realize that because God loves you so much, He made a solution to get rid of the separation that sin brings and bring us back to Him - He sent His son to pay the penalty for our sins. God would be a pretty poor God if He just said "oh, ok, I forgive you - go ahead and murder again, you nice little thing!" Of course, we can understand the concept of requiring a penalty for murder, because we are moral beings, altho imperfect; but God, who is moral and perfectly holy, RIGHTFULLY requires a penalty for a choice for ANY sin. And our penalty should be death; but Jesus willingly stepped into our shoes and took the penalty onto Himself.

3. So accept the fact that you're a sinner, by choice, and this rightfully separates you from a holy God (#1), and that because God loves us so much and longs for a relationship with us, Jesus willingly died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins (#2), and then finally, live your life in His love and obey His good and right commandments for us out of love for Him. These things are found in the New Testament; the Old Testament was for our instruction and to point out our sin and the need for a sacrifice to atone for it. (IOW, you don't have to go by the Old Testament dietary laws, but rather just what the New Testament says.) The Bible says in the book of Romans that those who are led by God are His children - so you can't just give lip-service to #1 and #2 and not choose to strive to change your life and bring it into alignment with God's perfect plans. If you just do lip service, that means that you really didn't accept them in your heart.

God is awesome! He loves us so much, and cares for us so much, and has only our good in mind - He is always calling to our hearts that He loves us, and calling us to choose Him over our sin. See, the simple fact is that we ARE created beings - there's only one God. It's not an ego thing - God is just God, and He created us - it's that simple. And as created beings, we ARE subject to a master. And we choose our master - either God (who is a loving and rightful master, and fills our hearts to overflowing with his love and joy), or sin. Becoming a Christian is basically choosing to align ourselves with the truth that God is the Creator and we are His creation.

And the Bible says there is a tremendous party in heaven every time a person chooses to become a Christian! God loves us so much.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Huh?? Well Rian it has your little picture thingee right next to that post so I can only ASSUME that you wrote it.

OK, like I said, perhaps I'm wrong - I couldn't find where I wrote that. I wrote something similar, but I couldn't find where I wrote what you quoted. And to me, wording is important - I word things very carefully.

However, I stand by what I wrote and what you quoted in your most recent post.

And I cant imagine you didn’t think I wouldn’t reply after all that.

Why would I not want you to reply? Of course I want to you reply - I like discussing things with you. I'm sorry we don't agree, but we can still discuss things.

[Ithilgalad]

Just for my own records :

The Bible consists of the Old and the New Testament, right? But look at God in the Old Testament, a God of punishment, flaming sword and everything... doesn´t sound to me like someone I´ld want to be around for eternity...

[Rían]

I just have time to address one thing right now, so I'll do the first one.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
BUT then you went on to say in another post:

Well, I still think that's true. What can I say? You say what you think is true about Christians, which is often insulting to me. But I'd much rather have it that way - it's a waste of time if you don't say what is true, IMO. Altho it should be spoken in love and consideration, which I think I did.

The reason why I think it's a bit of a cop-out is because what I see is that on issues that agnostics have made up their mind, they are convinced they're right, and they do NOT say "we'll never know"; but on other issues of their own choosing, they say "we'll never know" like it's some type of final conclusion. Well, then, apply "we'll never know" to EVERYTHING! Be fair! For example, homosexuality - as far as you know, I could be right and you could be wrong. So please don't tell me I'm wrong, please just say "we'll never know".

I'm sorry, I'm out of time - gotta go get the kids now. I like you, IRex, and consider you a friend - I'd like to keep up this conversation and work through it. I'll address your other points later, and if you like, you can address this post.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
Just for my own records :

The Bible consists of the Old and the New Testament, right? But look at God in the Old Testament, a God of punishment, flaming sword and everything... doesn´t sound to me like someone I´ld want to be around for eternity...

From the Old Testament - Jeremiah 31:3 (God speaking) - "I have loved you with an everlasting love."

I'm out of time, but I'll try to get more - the point of the OT, as I said, is to show us our sin and that there is rightfully a judgement for it. But the PURPOSE behind this is that God loves us.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
Just for my own records :

The Bible consists of the Old and the New Testament, right? But look at God in the Old Testament, a God of punishment, flaming sword and everything... doesn´t sound to me like someone I´ld want to be around for eternity...

I saw Rian's response too... That view of God as depicted in the Old Testament isn't really fair to the texts. There IS that aspect of Him in some places, but there's a whole lot more. When we DO see that part of Him, there's purpose to it. And we can see it as a reflection of His Holiness. He IS a Holy God!

The God of the New Testament is the same God... but He has brought to completion His great work of redeeming mankind to Himself... it was under way in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.

God didn't get converted between the Old and New Testaments.

[Ithilgalad]

Don´t put too much effort in it Rian (although I appreciate any efforts to correct me ... as I´ve said before, I try to learn whatever and wherever I can)... if you have got time anywhen sooner or later... don´t stress yourself on behalf of me, please (wouldn´t be good for my karma !)

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Ithilgalad
[B]Ok... Do you really think it matters whether you pray to God, Jahwe, Allah, The Goddess... or your Inner Self?... Isn´t it all quite the same?

There is some religion that believe every religion is essentially the same--Oh yes: Baha'i

From their official website...

Bahá'u'lláh [that's their founder] taught that there is one God Who progressively reveals His will to humanity. Each of the great religions brought by the Messengers of God - Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad - represents a successive stage in the spiritual development of civilization. Bahá'u'lláh, the most recent Messenger in this line, has brought teachings that address the moral and spiritual challenges of the modern world.

Interesting...

[Ithilgalad]

That indeed sounds interesting ... could you send me the adress (or post it here)? I would like to read a little bit more about that Baha´i ...