Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
-looks at post count-

Yowsers!

Jeebus. In another 1000+ votes you'll be knocking my BoP account off the top ten.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I gave you that word, and look what you do!

Nah... you helped me pull it off the tip of my tongue.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Jeebus. In another 1000+ votes you'll be knocking my BoP account off the top ten.

Don't I wish.. No way I'll get that high before I get shipped off to Russia.

[Elven Archer]

Originally posted by Artanis
I'm also interested.

btw, I think Coney is right about Nebraska ... together with Alabama, Florida, Virginia, at least ...

yeah, i think Alabama electrocuted someone a month or two ago.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elven Archer
yeah, i think Alabama electrocuted someone a month or two ago.

Interesting. I thought that the popular choice of execution was lethal injection. I stand corrected, then.

[Lief Erikson]

Okay. Entmoot says today is tomorrow, so I'm going to get started tonight. Unfortunately, I have most of this simply copied out of my sources, so a lot of it I'll have to write into the Internet. What I've already written into the Internet, I'll post now.

What I'm posting is a description of the uniqueness of the Bible, things that set it apart from all other books. I am going to not succeed in proving the Bible is the Word of God, but I will accomplish something. Any Atheist might just look at this, say, "I'm glad Christianity is doing so well" and leave. It would be simplistic, but they have no alternative because of their beliefs. The best way for finding out the true reliability of the scriptures is still to come to know God personally. However, what I am posting now might help some people to realize that Christianity may not be "just another religion", and the Bible will be proved to be far more than an ordinary book.

So, starting with what I have written. I'll leave the tough stuff for the real tomorrow .

[Lief Erikson]

F. F. Bruce (The Books and the Parchments, Fleming H. Revell) observes that: "The Bible, at first sight, appears to be a collection of literature—mainly Jewish. If we enquire into the circumstances under which the various Biblical documents were written, we find that they were written at intervals over a space of nearly 1400 years. The writers wrote in various lands, from Italy in the west to Mesopotamia and possibly Persia in the east. The writers themselves were a heterogeneous number of people, not only separated from each other by hundreds of years and hundreds of miles, but belonging to the most diverse walks of life. In their ranks we have kings, herdsmen, soldiers, legislators, fishermen, statesmen, courtiers, priests and prophets, a tentmaking Rabbi and a Gentile physician, not to speak of others of whom we know nothing apart from the writings they have left us. The writings belong to a great variety of literary types. They include history, law (civil, criminal, ethical, ritual, sanitary), religious poetry, didactic treatises, lyric poetry, parable and allegory, biography, personal correspondence, personal memoirs and diaries, in addition to the distinctively Biblical types of prophecy and apocalyptic.
"For all that, the Bible is not simply an anthology; there is a unity which binds the whole together. An anthology is compiled by an anthologist, but no anthologist complied the Bible."

The Bible is a book:
1 Written over a 1600 year span.
2 Written over 60 generations.
3 Written by 40 plus authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars, etc.:
Moses, a political leader, trained in the universities of Egypt
Peter, a fisherman
Amos, a herdsman
Joshua, a military general
Nehemiah, a cupbearer
Daniel, a prime minister
Luke, a doctor
Solomon, a king
Matthew, a tax collector
Paul, a Rabbi
4 Written in different places:
Moses in the wilderness
Jeremiah in a dungeon
Daniel on a hillside and in a palace
Paul inside prison walls
Luke while traveling
John on the isle of Patmos
Others in the rigors of a military campaign.
5 Written at different times:
David in times of war
Solomon in times of peace
6 Written during different moods:
Some writing from the heights of joy and others from the depths of sorrow and despair
7 Written on three continents:
Asia, Africa and Europe
8 Written in three languages:
Hebrew: Was the language of the Old Testament. In 2 Kings 18:26-28 called "the language of Canaan."
Aramaic: Was the "lingua franca" of the Near East until the time of Alexander the Great (6th century B.C.--4th century B.C.)
Greek: New Testament language. Was the international language at the time of Christ.

Originally written by Josh McDowell
A representative of the Great Books of the Western World came to my house recruiting salesmen for their series. He spread out the chart of the Great Books of the Western World series. He spent five minutes talking to us about the Great Books of the Western World series and we spent an hour and a half talking to him about the Greatest Book.

I challenged him to take just 10 of the authors, all from one walk of life, one generation, one place, one time, one mood, one continent, one language and just one controversial subject (the Bible speaks on hundreds with harmony and agreement).

Then I asked him: "Would they (the authors) agree?" He paused and then replied, "No!" "What would you have?" I retorted. Immediately he said, "A conglomeration."

Two days later he committed his life to Christ (the theme of the Bible).

Why all this? Very simple! Any man sincerely seeking the truth would consider a book with the above uniqueness

[Lief Erikson]

The Bible has been read by more people and published in more languages than any other book. There have been more copies produced of its entirety than any other book. There have been more copies produced of its entirety and more portions and selections than any other book in history. Some will argue that in a designated month or year more of a certain book was sold. However, over all there is absolutely no book that reaches or even begins to compare to the circulation of the Scriptures. The first major book printed was the Latin Vulgate. It was printed on Gutenberg's press.

Hy Pickering says that about 30 years ago for the British and Foreign Bible Society to meet its demands, it had to publish: "one copy every three seconds day and night; 22 copies every minute day and night; 1369 copies every hour day and night; 32,876 copies every day in the year. And it is deeply interesting to know that this amazing number of Bibles were dispatched to various parts of the world in 4583 cases weighing 490 tons."

The critic is right: "This doesn't prove the Bible is the Word of God!" But it does factually show the Bible is unique.

UNIQUE IN ITS TRANSLATION

The Bible was the first book translated.

The bible has been translated and retranslated adn paraphrased more than any other book in existence.

Encyclopedia Britannica says that by "1966 the whole Bible has appeared . . . in 240 languages and dialects, . . . one or more whole books of the Bible in 739 additional ones, a total publication of 1280 languages."

3000 Bible translators between 1950-1960 were at work translating the Scriptures.

The Bible factually stands unique ("one of a kind") in its translation

UNIQUE IN ITS SURVIVAL

Survival through Time
Written on material that perishes, having to be copied and recopied for hundreds of years before the invention of the printing press, did not diminish its style, correctness nor existence. The Bible, compared with other ancient writings, has more manuscript evidence than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.

A.T. Robertson, the author of the most comprehensive grammar of New Testament Greek, wrote, "There are some 8,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 1,000 for the other earlier versions. Add over 4,000 Greek manuscripts and we have 13,000 manuscript copies of portions of the new Testament. Besides all this, much of the New Testament can be reproduced by the quotations of early Christian writers.

John Warwick Montgomery (History and Christianity) says that, "to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."

John Lea in The Greatest Book in the World says: "It seems strange that the text of Shakespeare, which has been in existence less than two hundred and eight years, should be far more uncertain and corrupt than that of the New Testament, now over eighteen centuries old, during nearly fifteen of which it existed only in manuscript . . . With perhaps a dcozen or twenty exceptions, the text of every verse in the New Testament may be said to be so far settled by general consent of scholars, that any dispute as to its readings must relate rather to interpretation of the words than to any doubts repsecting the words themselves. But in every one of Shakespeare's thirty-seven plays there are probably a hundred readings still in dispute, a large portion of which materially affects the meaning of the passages in which they occur."

[Lief Erikson]

Hmm, this is getting pretty long. And it'll keep getting longer and longer if I go on. I'll finish it tomorrow, if I can.

[HOBBIT]

Yes, I should be asleep, but I could not sleep too well so I will post this on entmoot then go back to sleep.

Basically LE, what are you trying to say by posting all that you did?

As you have already said, nothing that you just posted proves in anyway that the bible is the word of god, quite the contrary really. Written by many many different MEN.

What I'm posting is a description of the uniqueness of the Bible, things that set it apart from all other books. I am going to not succeed in proving the Bible is the Word of God, but I will accomplish something

What, exactly?

Any Atheist might just look at this, say, "I'm glad Christianity is doing so well" and leave.

how did what you just posted show that christianity is currently doing "so well?" And btw, I'm not glad that it is, but i will leave anyway to sleep

It would be simplistic, but they have no alternative because of their beliefs.

So said the devout christian, bible in hand.

The best way for finding out the true reliability of the scriptures is still to come to know God personally.

gee, well I wish I could do this, but unfortunately it is not possible.

However, what I am posting now might help some people to realize that Christianity may not be "just another religion", and the Bible will be proved to be far more than an ordinary book.

It is "just another religion." In what sense is it so super? I'm NOT saying that it is just like any other religion. It is different - just like all other religions are different from eachother but also have their similarities. From your post, you seem to say that the "uniqueness" of the bible is what makes Christianity not "just another religion." But it is not unique to just Christianity.

Looooong before Christianty those stories were in the torah (still the torah..). then I guess they were renamed the old testament and the new testament was made up (oh sorry, created by men with god whispering in their ear). The two are what is called the bible (right?). I have not read the Kor'an, nor am I really familiar with it, but I have heard that they accept Jesus as a prophet along with the rest and have most, if not all the stories of the bible. other religions and cultures have similar holy books and many similar fables (like flood stories). Not all that unique to christianity alone, but it still is a pretty impressive book.

I'm sure that we all know that the bible is the most read book of all time, most published book of all time, translated the most times, first book printed, etc. That is impressive, but what is the point? It is an impressive book.......but that has nothing to do with any of it being the word of god. Its not like those facts are secret, everyone knows them.

As for the post with when it was written,how many years it took, the places and people that wrote it - i'm not going to get into how valid it is (i would think that it would be a lot longer than a span of 1600 years....), because it is not that important to me.

[Lizra]

It (religion) just seems like....If you can't bear to think that you aren't "special" and that you will really, really die ...once and for all......pick a religion and have fun pretending. I'm not trying to purposefully ridicule religion, just explain why it seems to be such a incredible, unbelievable, convoluted hassle, not necessary in modern times (for me at least!) Bible thumping preachers who claim the bible is the word of God, crack me up! It is the word of humanity! Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" (or something like that) was getting quite close! (IMO)

Let me add to this, I don't want to come off as sounding too harsh! Many "religious" people are the nicest humanity has to offer! Many (but not all!) of the teachings of popular religions help people to become "the best" they can be. I naturally gravitate toward some religious people because they are very kind, compassionate, and sincere. Rian, Lief, Gwaimer, Star and others are consistantly the most pleasant people on the moot! I just wish "religion" could keep up with the times and dump the "believe in the in believable" part as the litmus test!

[Ruinel]

The best way for finding out the true reliability of the scriptures is still to come to know God personally.

Yyyyyyyyyeah... ummm... send him over for coffee this morning and he can tell me all about himself. Oh, yeah... since you know him so well, tell him to bring some tacos or something. I'm hungry.

*imagines god hanging out in my living room saying, "well... I like to bowl with the angels but it makes quite a lot of noise... so we only do this on occasion. I like making examples out of people when I can by causing natural disasters and killing large groups of people at a time. Now that's a lot of fun.
Oh, are those Oreos, my fav....". God takes Oreo from plate in front of him.*

What Hobbit said: ditto.

I can't believe that I actually agree with something Lizra said. And since she has me on her ignore list, I suppose she didn't see that I already said that about religion used to subjugate the masses. *sigh*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
It is "just another religion." In what sense is it so super? I'm NOT saying that it is just like any other religion. It is different - just like all other religions are different from eachother but also have their similarities. From your post, you seem to say that the "uniqueness" of the bible is what makes Christianity not "just another religion." But it is not unique to just Christianity.

Looooong before Christianty those stories were in the torah (still the torah..). then I guess they were renamed the old testament and the new testament was made up (oh sorry, created by men with god whispering in their ear). The two are what is called the bible (right?). I have not read the Kor'an, nor am I really familiar with it, but I have heard that they accept Jesus as a prophet along with the rest and have most, if not all the stories of the bible. other religions and cultures have similar holy books and many similar fables (like flood stories). Not all that unique to christianity alone, but it still is a pretty impressive book.

One thing interesting to note is that those stories and tales stem from Christianity, not the other way around.

Here it is easly to debate with me. Based on current chronology of the Old Testament, virtually none of the events prior to Solomon in the Old Testament are accounted for. Not only that, but chronology shows that the Old Testament was derived from Assyria, Babylonia, virtually all the places Israel was conquered by and brought to. It is believed that it learned from them. My Dad's study points otherwise, that they actually learned from the Israelies, and God in his nation affected all the other nations around it.

You want to hear how that conclusion is drawn?

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I'm sure that we all know that the bible is the most read book of all time, most published book of all time, translated the most times, first book printed, etc. That is impressive, but what is the point? It is an impressive book.......but that has nothing to do with any of it being the word of god. Its not like those facts are secret, everyone knows them.

There is a very strong point. In Isaiah, God says "For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

Therefore, it is logical that if his ways are higher than our ways, that some evidence would be seen of that. And the evidence does exist: I'm simply showing that evidence. The evidence that shows the Bible not to be like any other book, as God's Word should not be.

Proving the uniqueness of the Bible and its success in the face of insurmountable barriers is to prove it a very extraordinary book. I said from the outset that this doesn't prove the Bible to be the Word of God. However, its creation is astounding, its circulation is incredible (Especially considering the content of the book), its translation, and I will get into more evidences later. But it is plainly apart from all other books, as God's Word should be.

This evidence is not proof. But someone looking for truth, as Josh McDowell says, it is very logical to consider looking to a book with these qualifications.

I will continue giving more evidences later; they get more interesting, even than these points that set the Bible apart by itself among books.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Yyyyyyyyyeah... ummm... send him over for coffee this morning and he can tell me all about himself. Oh, yeah... since you know him so well, tell him to bring some tacos or something. I'm hungry.

*imagines god hanging out in my living room saying, "well... I like to bowl with the angels but it makes quite a lot of noise... so we only do this on occasion. I like making examples out of people when I can by causing natural disasters and killing large groups of people at a time. Now that's a lot of fun.
Oh, are those Oreos, my fav....". God takes Oreo from plate in front of him.*

What Hobbit said: ditto.

I can't believe that I actually agree with something Lizra said. And since she has me on her ignore list, I suppose she didn't see that I already said that about religion used to subjugate the masses. *sigh*

I have a question. Why are you on the thread if all you will do is mock what you do not understand and have not experienced? The thread is for discussion and debate, for us to learn more. I'm sorry for being rude, but I don't think your post adds anything to the conversation.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I have a question. Why are you on the thread if all you will do is mock what you do not understand and have not experienced? The thread is for discussion and debate, for us to learn more. I'm sorry for being rude, but I don't think your post adds anything to the conversation.

Yyyyyyeeaahhhh.... well, I suppose I got sick and tired of some of the christians being rude to me and the other non-christians here (barring Gwai and Rian and a few others, of course... they haven't been rude). It was my response to the posts that stated we (the nonbelievers) should get to know god personally.

Further more, you are not proving that a deity wrote the bible. Many of the ancient jews were nomadic at different times. They traded for goods with other cultures. Many were captured and moved to the place were they were enslaved. What you are saying is that the bible was passed on through generations of a people and developed over time. This does not prove that it was written by a deity. If you were truely a student of religions you would know that many religions have similar bases and doctrines. (I'm not talking about christian sects.) This doesn't prove that they also were written by the same deity. It proves that societies that interact have an influence on other societies that they interact with.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Elven Archer
yeah, i think Alabama electrocuted someone a month or two ago.

Who does what, where?

Yep, looks like Alabama still does the frying thing.

[Earniel]

Hanging?

Firing squad??

Oh my, they still do that? And I thought that electrocution was already rather outdated...

[Coney]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Hanging?

Firing squad??

Oh my, they still do that? And I thought that electrocution was already rather outdated...

Ditto!

A lot of states seem to have no trouble murdering 16 yr old kids either

Bleedin' barbaric *shakes head*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
...Why are you on the thread if all you will do is mock what you do not understand and have not experienced? ....

Ah, forgot to mention. If you've read my posts, you would know that I have experienced religion for most of my life. And I do understand it, that's why I have become an atheist.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Further more, you are not proving that a deity wrote thebible.

Did I ever say that I was proving that?

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Proving the uniqueness of the Bible and its success in the face of insurmountable barriers is to prove it a very extraordinary book. I said from the outset that this doesn't prove the Bible to be the Word of God. However, its creation is astounding, its circulation is incredible (Especially considering the content of the book), its translation, and I will get into more evidences later. But it is plainly apart from all other books, as God's Word should be.

This evidence is not proof. But someone looking for truth, as Josh McDowell says, it is very logical to consider looking to a book with these qualifications.

I believe I said what I was doing and what I was accomplishing, and I don't think anything you have said says I am failing in accomplishing my purpose.