Theology III

[Azrael]

Cast science out the window?! Why would you do that?!

ever here of the big bang theory? Billions of atoms all exploding at once everywhere at the same time. The bible says that God said "let there be light" and boom the universe was created (i added the boom cause i like that word)
ever hear of fine tuning? like if the stars were any hotter or colder or if we were even a millimeter closer to the sun.....someone was really precise. Theres a million more like these Coffee read "the case for a creator" the author was using reasoning and logic along with science to prove God wrong...hes a believer now.


o and Chap stick (im adding to your nick name bro) you are saying that because God is sinless and people once they get to Heaven lose their sin and become what God made them that Mary must be sinless.....twisting the words in the bible i see young padawan lol jk. The title you speck of "full of Grace" do you even know what grace means it is God's way of forgiving us for our sins....whose to say she didn't sin but always came clean about here sins and asked for God's forgiveness? She was 100% born with sin theres no denning that, but she was a great person in the bible so was Paul. Ane when you said "Gpd sent his mother to Egypt" your forgetting Mary was Jesus's (God) mother on earth so that he could become human but did Mary not refer to Him as God and not son? (except when he was going to the cross but she did have that motherly connection with Him since she was involved in raising Him) When Jesus stained behind and they found Him in the temple and he told them "didn't you think to look for me in my Fathers house" was he talking about Joesph? no he was talking about God the father, so his father was God of course. So now by your theory God and Mary were Jesus parents. How could Mary be Gods mother if God has always been even before He became human He was still Jesus right? The reason I agree with and disagree is you are saying that Mary is the Mother of God but she was just the mother of Jesus so he could become human (yes God) but she knew she was not His mother she says it a few times (if i remember right) Back to elijah is John the Baptist. John was the fore told one of elijah not elijah himself...that would say there was recreation and you should know thats not true once in Heaven your there...why would you want to leave its super sweet up there. The woman in revelations is not a human woman but Israel, when it says the dragon is the Anti-christ and when it says he tries to eat the womans child it means the people fleeing Israel because of the mark of the beast...im pretty good with revelations Gods been helping me but im still shaky on some parts. But brother your still wicked awesome and i can't wait to see you in Heaven and then both of us will know the truth (jesus!)

o and brother stop pressuring coffee hes clear hes not changing so back off a little and be loving...weather he comes around or not thats Gods doing not yours you can throw as much proof as you want at him but Gods the only one that can change him

[Lief Erikson]

Get to your post in a moment, Azrael.


In case you're curious, Coffeehouse, here's the article with the picture of the flock of doves. There are seven doves (the symbolic number of perfection in Christian theology), flying in the formation of a sideways cross.

This link also has a picture of a Marian apparition from Zeitoun carrying the Christ-child.
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

Azrael, I don't think Coffeehouse is annoyed at my posting this evidence and debating with him on this subject. He hasn't expressed aggravation at my posts. If he does, I'll try to modify my behavior, but I don't think I'm bothering him by arguing with him as I am.

Am I, Coffeehouse?

[Azrael]

dude ok this is a big iffy but i got to tell you what i found. It repeated stuff from this Mary and it clearly stating the way to God was through her! go to youtube and type in "mary above a church" and click the one that says demontic mary appertion. True or not heres another thought for you if satan can make an anti-christ why not mary? the catlolics put so much into Mary that he could fool so many...right? this is just a thought

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

You betcha. But a glass of cold water with it.

Good thing for you that I'm a prophet.

Originally Posted by Azrael

Mary was born with sin...if she wasn't then she would not be human...mary was born with sin and did sin but she was righteous in God's eye and was part of the david blood line so Jesus became human as a little baby and through the holy spirit entered her but since he did not take her DNA he was not born with sin...so only Jesus was born without original sin.... plus your also saying Jesus was in her before she was born but in the bible it clearly says when Jesus entered her womb.

As Lief says, sin is not necessary for humanity; else, Adam and Eve would not have been human before the fall, and more importantly, Christ would not have been human.

And, really, I have to say this idea that sin is in the DNA seems a bit foolish. Sin is not a physical thing, it is not something of the body. It is something in the soul. It would seem that the only way he could have had a human nature was to have her DNA.

Jesus was not the only one born without original sin; Adam and Eve were, too, so there is precedent for mere man to be devoid of it.

(Well, I suppose technically, they weren't BORN without it, they were CREATED without it, but I don't think that would make a difference. )

Jesus was not in her before she was born; the effects of his redemptive sacrifice were. God, after all, is not limited by a silly thing like time.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yeah, and for that matter, all the righteous people in heaven are humans and yet they're all completely sinless. So being sinless definitely doesn't make you non-human.

Also a good point.

In fact, some of the apparitions of Mary have included her holding the infant Jesus. His body is from eternity, so the infant Christ body was eternal too. Christ at every stage of his existence was eternal. Anything added to him was only added to him from a human perspective, I think, but truly God was always that way. Probably Gwaimir could give you a much better answer.

Not really, I don't quite understand what Az is saying...

Well, this gets a little tricky because of the existence of the Trinity, of which Jesus is a part. So if she's the mother of Jesus and Jesus is one with God the Father and the Spirit, in a sense she might be considered mother of the Godhead. God is one. But we Catholics primarily think of her in terms of her motherhood of Jesus. And Jesus is God, so yes, being mother of Jesus, she's Mother of God.

Et in personis proprietas, et in essentia unitas, as the Preface of the Trinity has it. Both separation in persons, and unity in essence. Since one is mother of a person, not of an essence, I don't think you'd want to say that she's mother of the Godhead; only of the Son. Her relation to the Persons of the Holy Trinity is generally described as "Mother of the Son, Daughter of the Father, Spouse of the Holy Spirit". I think it would be very dangerous to think of her as mother of the Godhead. She is the Mother of God the Son, not the Mother of Deity, of "Godness".

Originally Posted by Azrael

two things all I know about cus again we entered over my head. Both DNA and Mary's sins are not in the bible for one reason. The bible (God's word) is not concerned with it the bible follows one thing only...our fall and jesus repairing it HisLessions he taught us.

That is the general over-arching theme of Scripture, but it's hardly the only thing in it.

As for Mary sinning "we all sin and fall short of the glory of God" not it does not say "we all in and fall short of the glory of God except Mary" to think she was not a sinner is to think she is above humanity and is holy.

It is a common and acceptable literary hyperbole to say "all" for "most". For instance, David writes in the Psalms "There is none righteous, no, not one"; even stronger language than "all have sinned etc.", yet Scripture tells us Ishbosheth, in the times of David himself, was righteous, and we won't get into how many other people were described as such. To say "all" does not mean "all" without exception. Augustine of Hippo strongly and repeatedly affirmed the doctrine and language of all sinning, but when the question was turned to the Virgin Mary, he refused to even allow the matter to be mentioned in connection with her, he so strongly felt her to be sinless.

Everyone is a sinner and everyone needs God plain and simple but not everyone accepts this.

This is true. Mary needed God, just as much as you and I do, as I have said before. It was only through His grace that she was preserved from any stain of sin, not through any power of her own.

Now what I think is instead of arguing among ourselves we should spread God's truth.

I have gone all over the web too and seen all those pictures of "Mary" not one looked like her most of them didn't even look close to a person or anything of that such.

I'm impressed that you know the physical appearance of the Virgin Mother well enough to say "What, that doesn't even look like her!"

[Azrael]

well you say it does...but you've never seen here....im saying the pictures don't even resemple human of any nature.....and mary holding Jesus? why and how if Jesus is an adult.....something fishy here why would she appear with Jesus as a baby if Hes not a baby?

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Now what I think is instead of arguing among ourselves we should spread God's truth.

amen! i wish we would that God's word I know well...this stuff I don't hehe sorry haven't gone to a catolic church yet on my travels (o im going to every religions church to learn about them so i can share my faith with them)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Azrael

well you say it does...but you've never seen here....im saying the pictures don't even resemple human of any nature.....and mary holding Jesus? why and how if Jesus is an adult.....something fishy here why would she appear with Jesus as a baby if Hes not a baby?

Because it most readily shows the relation between the two of them.

Originally Posted by Azrael

amen! i wish we would that God's word I know well...this stuff I don't hehe sorry haven't gone to a catolic church yet on my travels (o im going to every religions church to learn about them so i can share my faith with them)

Actually, that was a quote from you that I forgot to clip out.

Uh-oh, poaching!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

o and Chap stick (im adding to your nick name bro) you are saying that because God is sinless and people once they get to Heaven lose their sin and become what God made them that Mary must be sinless.....twisting the words in the bible i see young padawan lol jk.

That's not what I said. What I was saying by pointing out humans who are sinless is that being sinless doesn't make you non-human.

And what I was saying in referring to Jesus, who was fully human, but isn't mentioned as an exception in the "all sin and fall short of the glory of God" passage is that exceptions do evidently exist to this passage. Jesus was an exception. His mother could be an exception too, since Jesus was an exception and wasn't mentioned. The passage doesn't rule out Mary's sinlessness.

Originally Posted by Azrael

The title you speck of "full of Grace" do you even know what grace means it is God's way of forgiving us for our sins....

The scripture also refers to Jesus as "full of grace." However, he was sinless, so clearly being full of grace doesn't mean that you have been forgiven of your sins.

Originally Posted by Azrael

whose to say she didn't sin but always came clean about here sins and asked for God's forgiveness?

Who's to say that she did? Very, very few prior to the Reformation.

Remember, "Full of Grace," was her title. Gabriel used it as a name for her. That's far, far more than an average human's grace, and he referred to her in that way before she even had conceived Jesus.

Originally Posted by Azrael

She was 100% born with sin theres no denning that,

I deny it .

Originally Posted by Azrael

but she was a great person in the bible so was Paul. Ane when you said "Gpd sent his mother to Egypt" your forgetting Mary was Jesus's (God) mother on earth so that he could become human but did Mary not refer to Him as God and not son? (except when he was going to the cross but she did have that motherly connection with Him since she was involved in raising Him)

Mary could refer to Jesus as either son or God. He was both to her . And as you point out, she did refer to him as her son. Though you can argue that she did so because of raising him only.

I don't think you're quoting the prophetess Ann correctly, though. Not that it makes any theological difference, but I don't think the passage actually says what you're saying it says- could you get me a verse number?

Originally Posted by Azrael

When Jesus stained behind and they found Him in the temple and he told them "didn't you think to look for me in my Fathers house" was he talking about Joesph? no he was talking about God the father, so his father was God of course.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Azrael

So now by your theory God and Mary were Jesus parents.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Azrael

How could Mary be Gods mother if God has always been even before He became human He was still Jesus right?

Yes. As he said to the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM." I tried to explain this in my previous post. Jesus' physical body is eternal. It always was. Within a temporal human standpoint, from a human perspective, it had a point of origin. While from that perspective it "began," it truly always was. Some of the Marian apparitions include Mary carrying the infant Jesus. His infant body is eternal just as his adult body is eternal. Both are God and God is unchanging. It only appears that he changed or was added to from a human standpoint, but what was added to him within time truly was always His from eternity.

It is complex, but it makes sense. The rules aren't normal when we're talking about an eternal, infinite being.

Originally Posted by Azrael

The reason I agree with and disagree is you are saying that Mary is the Mother of God but she was just the mother of Jesus so he could become human (yes God) but she knew she was not His mother she says it a few times (if i remember right)

You'll have to find me quotes. Because I don't think it's in the scripture.

There is one where Jesus was told, "your mother and brothers are here to see you," and he said something like, "my mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and obey it." That doesn't deny that his physical mother was his physical mother- it simply expresses a spiritual truth as well.

Later, a woman said to Jesus, "blessed is the mother who bore you and the breasts that nursed you." He said, "blessed rather are those who . . ." Don't remember the rest of that line, but the point is that while he said blessed rather are these, he didn't deny that her breasts had nursed him. If her breasts nursed him, her milk and body entering his, then he received her flesh.

By the way, is it your opinion, Azrael, that Jesus never ate anything while he was on Earth? Because wouldn't that, technically, be adding material to Christ, from your point of view?

Originally Posted by Azrael

Back to elijah is John the Baptist. John was the fore told one of elijah not elijah himself...that would say there was recreation and you should know thats not true once in Heaven your there...why would you want to leave its super sweet up there.

THAT, in my view, is absolutely the wrong way to look at it. St. Paul wrote that we are all the Body of Christ, and when one part suffers, every part suffers. That includes those in Heaven. So they are concerned about people on Earth- they care enormously about the saints below, and pray for them, according to the Book of Revelation, which said that the saints in Heaven give as incense on platters to God the prayers of the saints on Earth. If you love someone who's suffering, you'll pray for them and do whatever you can on their behalf. Which might include visiting them in apparition form, or counseling them or giving them feelings of comfort and strength. And praying for them always- as St. Paul recommends for us, "pray continually."

It would be absolutely heartless if the saints in Heaven went there and then stopped caring about the sufferings of their brothers on Earth.

Originally Posted by Azrael

The woman in revelations is not a human woman but Israel, when it says the dragon is the Anti-christ and when it says he tries to eat the womans child it means the people fleeing Israel because of the mark of the beast...

That's one interesting interpretation . . . how do you know it's the right one?

Originally Posted by Azrael

im pretty good with revelations Gods been helping me but im still shaky on some parts.

We all are.

Originally Posted by Azrael

But brother your still wicked awesome and i can't wait to see you in Heaven and then both of us will know the truth (jesus!)

Same here .