Why you believe what you believe I

[Starr Polish]

I was misunderstood by both inked and Ragnorak. I need to just stop making mostly joking posts, because people twist my words and get all condescending in some cases.

[Ragnarok]

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

[inked]

Starr Polish,

But I didn't misunderstand you! I replied in kind! Sorry to have seemed to have missed the boat on that but I thought my tongue-in-cheek was way over the top! I clearly hear what you were saying, I think. That's why I felt free to have a little fun!


Ragnarok,

Victor Frankl is a wonderful source of discernment IMHO. I have read and re-read his book since college. When I lost it in divorce and accident, I replaced it eagerly. Your wording makes me curious, but I appreciate your witness. Would it be something to discuss further, or would you prefer to leave it as is?
Also, are you familiar with Henri Nouwen, THE WOUNDED HEALER? If so, what did you make of it?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So given those thoughts, and given your goal of doing good and helping others, has the question of whether or not God exists has taken on any more importance for you, given the claim (which I can attest to first-hand) that knowing God empowers and enables you to love and do more good?

sincere goodwill comes from inside... not a book... not a supreme being... i'm sorry, but i really do not believe that "knowing god" makes one whit of difference... it is just a personification of a personal change of heart

i won't argue that for some people "finding god" makes them a better person... i would argue however that "finding god" is actually "finding themselves" and learning to think long-term as opposed to short-term... there are many stories and quotations in the bible that illustrate the benefits of being a good person... as there are in other religions, or even in non-religious philosophical texts

some people need the "god" behind the words to take them to heart... some, like myself, do not... i can find plenty of real world reasons for doing good and helping others... i don't need a "god" behind those reasons, and i don't believe it would make me any better... in fact, one could argue that it might detract from the good i could do

people are "tribal" by nature, they stick close to their own and are suspicious of those that are different... usually, the more different, the more suspicious... indentifying myself with any one religious belief (of which christianity is only one of many), by it's very nature puts a certain level of suspicion between me and a person of a different faith... more often than not this suspicion is completely ungrounded, but it does exist in our world

send a group of christians into a muslim country and no matter what their actions are, the fear that they are actually trying to convert the populace will exist... send a group of muslims to the US, and the same fears, if not worse, will exist too... much better in my mind to send "unaffiliated assistance"

i'm pretty familiar with christianity, as i am with other faiths... i enjoy many of the myths the various religious texts put forth... some are very insightful, some are a bit silly in today's world, some are dangerous if taken too literally... but they are all just stories, like tolkien's lotr... some may even be so good that they actually change the way you view the world... but i would much prefer to continue to let new, and maybe yet untold, stories shape my view of the world, than eternally restrict my view to something that has already been written... no matter how good

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

what an excellent post brownie!

[inked]

brownjenkins,

So man is the measure of man, and supremely, brownjenkins is the measure of man in your belief system?

But, if each person feels that way there is no distinguishment of good or evil to which you allude, it is all MERELY subjective.

Do I understand your position correctly?

[osszie]

It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.

It's quite worrying that as a race of people capable of fully independant thought (and thought processes) so many still require others to tell them how "best" to live, instead of being able to do it for themselves

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by osszie

It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.

My only comment on that is this:

When does a young child usually behave the most politely? When they have their parents near at hand and willing to beat the living $*** out of them if they don't mind their manners.

[BeardofPants]

Actually, with me, it was when I had my nose parked in a book!

[inked]

Originally Posted by osszie

It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.

It's quite worrying that as a race of people capable of fully independant thought (and thought processes) so many still require others to tell them how "best" to live, instead of being able to do it for themselves

And whom, pray tell, has uttered that non sequiter other than your brain?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Actually, with me, it was when I had my nose parked in a book!

You don't count anyways BoP. You've never behaved well a day in your life!

[BeardofPants]

I'll have you know that I was the favourite with my rallies! I was bookish, and quiet.... then teenage-hood struck.

[osszie]

Originally Posted by inked

And whom, pray tell, has uttered that non sequiter other than your brain?

Everyone capable of independant thought I imagine.....

[osszie]

Originally Posted by Tessar

My only comment on that is this:

When does a young child usually behave the most politely? When they have their parents near at hand and willing to beat the living $*** out of them if they don't mind their manners.

Nope, a young child behaves when it decides to......have you never seen a kid admonished then stick it's tongue out as soon as it's parents turn their eye away

[Millane]

Originally Posted by osszie

It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.

i like this viewpoint, the use of fear and rewards when death comes, and also why i prefer to listen to Epicurus, on why man should not fear death, and if man doesnt fear death he will live a more fulfilling life. now thats some nice reasoning to me

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

brownjenkins,

So man is the measure of man, and supremely, brownjenkins is the measure of man in your belief system?

brownjenkins is the measure of brownjenkins, not man

But, if each person feels that way there is no distinguishment of good or evil to which you allude, it is all MERELY subjective.

bingo!!

Do I understand your position correctly?

basically yes, i think

all morals are relative to the individual, which is in fact true even if you subscribe to a religious belief system

why are we then not all self-centered murders, rapists and thieves? because *most of us* realize the long-term advantage of being a positive member of society... do onto others as you would have them do onto you makes a good bit of sense in and of itself... irregardless of who you want to attribute the thought too

[inked]

So you posit an ultimate good by which all other goods are measured : the longterm good of society.

Why should I accept that as the ultimate good from which to base decisions about actions, either my own or others?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

So you posit an ultimate good by which all other goods are measured : the longterm good of society.

Why should I accept that as the ultimate good from which to base decisions about actions, either my own or others?

because ultimately it is in your own self-interest that you and the others around you act in such a way... happy society = happy people

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

sincere goodwill comes from inside... not a book... not a supreme being... i'm sorry, but i really do not believe that "knowing god" makes one whit of difference... it is just a personification of a personal change of heart

I completely disagree with your last sentence fragment but thank you for sharing your beliefs - that's what this thread is about.

Let me phrase it another way - IF it is indeed true that the God described in the Bible exists, and it is indeed true that He can help a person who turns to Him to grow immensely in love for others, and you knew this, would you turn to Him for help, or would you prefer to just use your own resources, even though it meant that you would be less loving to others?

... but i would much prefer to continue to let new, and maybe yet untold, stories shape my view of the world, than eternally restrict my view to something that has already been written... no matter how good

IF the "no matter how good" story is actually an accurate description of the true state of things, would you still prefer to let "new, and maybe yet untold stories" shape your view of the world, even if some of those stories are totally wrong and could harm others?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by osszie

It's a sad, sad person who thinks they need either the threat of hell or the reward of heaven as a means to deciding what is good or bad.

I agree. Doing something good for a reward IMO is not much better than not doing it at all.