The Critics' treatment of Tolkien & Jackson

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
The Orcs at the battle of the Fords of Isen specifically included pikemen (per Tolkien in Unfinished Tales). It would, however, be odd for fresh troops to be milling around behind the line, weapons in hand, coincidentally in perfect position to counter the surprise flank attack (and fail to execute).

Excellent observation, Cirdan. You stumbled upon the answer when you said it would be odd for FRESH troops to be milling around in the back. That's because they wouldn't have been fresh. They were either dead-tired orc soldiers who were getting out of the line of fire for a breather after fighting all night or they were orc slackers who never really wanted to fight in the first place. In either case, these weren't the orcs Saruman would have wanted on the front lines trying to counter a surprise flank attack.

Everybody wants to pick on the orcs' failure to stop Gandalf's Charge but anybody who has paid attention to Tolkien's portrayal of orcs knows that they were typically stupid, back-stapping, not particularly brave, and certainly not the best fighters in the world--even Saruman's "fighting uruk-hai." The orcs' inability to stop the surprise attack given the circumstances is very logical and I would suspect that Tolkien himself would have approved.

[Cirdan]

...except they all are fully geared and still holding weapons (what I meant by fresh). It's not a huge flaw but Tolkien fans are used to minimal exageration and maximum plausibility. I'm impressed every time I read it thinking maybe he missed some things. Of course, magic is a bit of a crutch, but he kept it to a minimum. In the film, that particular moment did not allow me to maintain my suspension of disbelief, but then I'm a cynic.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
...but then I'm a cynic.

What a shocker!!!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
What a shocker!!!

Yes, I can't watch "Armegeddon" without pointing out that space shuttles can't take that kind of abuse. And who would lauch two rockets side-by-side? One goes and takes the other with it? And how could the cows fly in "Twister" but not the cars? Sure the cars are better at catching air. And how many times can somebody fire a machine gun without hitting anything? and...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Excellent observation, Cirdan. You stumbled upon the answer when you said it would be odd for FRESH troops to be milling around in the back. That's because they wouldn't have been fresh. They were either dead-tired orc soldiers who were getting out of the line of fire for a breather after fighting all night or they were orc slackers who never really wanted to fight in the first place. In either case, these weren't the orcs Saruman would have wanted on the front lines trying to counter a surprise flank attack.

Some observations:

I don't know if they were necessarily tired. There were 10'000 orcs so only a small fraction would have been able to see action at any given time, due to the layout of the valley and the fortress.

I always thought orcs always want to fight? Eat man-flesh and all that. Even though, I can go for some of them being slackers.

[Cirdan]

Saruman: "You do not feel pain, you do not know fear, but you may get shagged out after seiging a while, or maybe want a nap after a bit."

[Black Breathalizer]

Okay, guys, I'm making my assumptions ... [drum roll please] ...based on THE BOOKS!!!

Tolkien's orcs always struck me as being major-league slackers and complainers.

[Cirdan]

Well, then Erkenbrand came on foot with swordsmen, an effective counter to pikemen. They were thousands strong and the Orcs were already panicked by the Huorns.

Orcs, in the book, are definitely panicky. Orcs in the movie, at least Saruman's Uruk-hai, Berzerkers! I would have like to have seen a few more rohirrim join in the sortie from the Deep. It was glossed over just how all the Orcs were killed. Maybe it will be picked up in a flashback in RotK.

[Nurvingiel]

This is true Cirdan. Yea! Reinforcements are here! 10'000 orcs die magically within minutes, off camera. Except once the reinforcements arrive, everyone knows, whether they've read the books or not, that the orcs are toast.

[gives BB a drum roll] Originally posted by me:
I always thought orcs always want to fight? Eat man-flesh and all that. Even though, I can go for some of them being slackers.

To add to that, the orcs had also been fighting all night. The reinforcements weren't exactly fresh either, but they were fresher, braver and had more fighting spirit.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
It was glossed over just how all the Orcs were killed.

It depends on how you mean that. It was emphasized a number of times in the "set up" scenes that Helm's Deep had never been taken throughout its long history and that even if the deepening wall was broken, it would take thousands of orcs to successfully storm the hornburg.

This implies to me that even with a huge numbers advantage, Saruman wasn't expecting a cake walk. Major casualties were expected. Did we see piles of bodies? no. But it was understood that the orcs would have suffered huge losses by the time the sun rose in the east.

[Cirdan]

With such a small force defending, especially with many being children and old men, it would be very unlikely that they could have withstood the seige of so many fully equipped with seige engines. reducing the defense from 1000 to 300 was bad enough, but then the huorns are out, and Eomer's force is stated at 100. Walls are not very useful if not manned. The Uruks are steroidal bohemoths to boot. Even a phalanx of elven archers leaves the odds long, and impossible w/o them (which is why they were added).

They just show the charges and the next scene, flip back to FRodo, then back again, a somebody is screaming victory, then to Isengard, then back to Gandalf and company riding out. Whaaa??? It just seems they weren't comfortable with wrapping the scene w/o cutting away several times as a distraction.

And since when does the sun rise in the west?

[Nurvingiel]

I'm not really part of this debate, because no one responds to my posts (glares at BB), but I will still throw in my 2 cents.

Maybe Helm's deep is actually at the south end of the valley... nah, that's pretty weak.

I think the numbers were changed to increase drama, which it did.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not to mention implausibility.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I'm not really part of this debate, because no one responds to my posts (glares at BB)

Guess I'm damned when I do and damned if I don't.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Shouldn't it be either 'damned if I do and damned if I don't' or 'damned when I do and damned when I don't?'

NOTE: This isn't sarcasm. I honestly am not sure.

[mithrand1r]

Gwaimir Windgem,

I think the phrase is

'damned if I do and damned if I don't'

I still do not like the charge into the Orcs with pikes (even if orcs should have pikes according to Tolkien's Letters) and I do not like the odds of the battle (a few hundred @ Helms Deep + (2,000 max {Although on screen it appears that Eomer had about 200-300 horses max} Horseman with Gandalf & Eomer vs. 10,000 Orcs)

The actually fight scene was interesting to me though.

Sincerely,
Anthony

[Nurvingiel]

I love debating with you BB!

I actually think Eomer had more like 2000 horsemen. Looking up at them from the bottom of a valley, we wouldn't be able to see many at once.

[Black Breathalizer]

Nurvingiel is right. The movie made mention of the fact that Eomer had 2000 soldiers.

By the time Gandalf and Eomer's troops charged down the hill, the number of orcs still alive was probably in the 2000-3000 range. The orcs had to have taken a heavy death toll in their efforts to storm the wall and scale the hornburg.

The arrival of Gandalf and Eomer's troops made the fight nearly equal in numbers. But considering the character of the orcs versus the riders of the Mark, this amounted to a DRASTIC change in fortunes.

In other words, the rout was on.

[Entlover]

Exactly.
In the website's Inside the Effects, where it discusses the Battles of ME, one of the special effects people makes a point of the cowardice of the orcs. (That stuff is really interesting, where they show how they created the armies) Even if the odds were much more skewed for the orcs, they would have turned tail.

She also discusses the different fighting styles of the elves and orcs, which I hadn't noticed (only seen it twice so far.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that they killed 7000-8000 in one night.