Arwen in the Movie, How did you feel about her?

[Gerbil]

Really? Nowhere in LotR did I garner even the slightest suggestion Aragorn might have fancied a bit of Eowyn.
He understood where she was coming from, I'm sure, but was already in love with another, and moreover, knew that Eowyn was not in love with him, but she was in love with the idea of being in love with what he represented.

On the other hand, Aragorn was what, 80 or so when he was crowned King. That's a long time without nookie. Perhaps that's why he was so fearsome in combat - all that repressed 'energy'

[coolismo]

I liked the way Arwen was used in the movie. The scenen where she rides out with Frodo is excellent. After the Anduin consumes the Nazgul we see that Arwen has taken a scratch on her cheek from a tree branch. She lays Frodo down and her tears begin to flow. The tears cascade over her own wound. This conveys that her tears are impersonal, tears of salvation and redemption for the ringbearer. Shortly thereafter she sacrifices her immortality for Aaragorn. This little sequence really encapsulates the theme of the trilogy. Quest, impersonal tears and sacrifice. It brings a theme that will be expanded in other characters later into the movie trilogy early on so the audience is prepared for it. I really liked it and the point could not have been made by using one of the male characters.
So I liked Arwen in the movie (ducks arrow)

[jerseydevil]

Takes careful aim and fires.

I HATED the Flight to the Ford scene (as everyone that has read my posts knows).

[Gerbil]

errr Coolismo, it's nice you gathered all that from the sequences.
That's the best thing about it all - everyone gets something different from such a film.
However, I think you are reading much more into it than PJ ever intended, it was just another misleading 'death' of Frodo, and showing that Arwen cares about us little folk.

For myself, I could even stand the flight to the ford sequence in itself (btw interesting to see if Arwen bears a scar from the wound in the flight - it's a well known fact elves don't scar . But the near death of Frodo and her giving her 'grace' to him to make him live longer is utter garbage and well out of keeping with Tolkien's world.

Oh well - film is still great though

[Lelondul]

Anyone who has read the books cannot possibly like the treament given Arwen and the flight to the ford scene. Her beefed up role only served to weaken Strider's presence (when she surprised them in the wild), and further nullify the presence of two elf-lords, Gandalf, Strider and the Hobbits of whom the author felt were needed to counter the the Ringwraiths. Oh, need I say the Ringwraiths were made to look much less perilous by Arwen's role changes as well? All of that simply to add a 'strong female role'? Barf.


I know that we're not supposed to compare the film to the books tit-for-tat, (and I haven't - by in large, I liked it very much) but so much was done so well, it makes the deviations seem completely stupid.

Lelond, off to see it again.

[coolismo]

The book is undoubtedly superior to the movie, no question i'd rather have pipeweed and the book than popcorn and the movie everytime.
Look the Nazgul are already weakened as a threat in the movie. They are worse at combat than even the orcs. Alright we lose Glorfindel and maybe we reckon Frodo not to be as brave as we read it in the book. But the scene in no way weakens our beloved king. Surely it strengthens him because we see him accepting the troth of a strong woman (brrrrrrr) moments later. BTW liv tyler seems to gain/lose about 10 pounds through the movie, maybe they did beef up her role.

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

My feelings are that Arwen's role in the movie is fine. We all feel bad that Glorfindel was left out, but that's because we know who Glorfindel was. To the vast majority (to whom PJ had to target this film to fulfill the fiduciary duty he owes his producers) he is just another tall blond dude on a horse...and keep in mind that there was/is considerable debate even within Tolkien Geek circles over who exactly Glorfindel was.

As far as lessening Aragorn's character, remember that he spends a good deal of time himself in the first half of TLOTR second-guessing himself and his own choices...in my opinion, he doesn't really get "kingly" until he passes into Gondor...Legolas and Gimli are described as seeing this side of Aragorn for the first time when Eomer challenges him in the fields...right?

[Lelondul]

I have to respectfully disagree oh foul Dwimmerlaik. I can understand Glorfindel's ommision as without multiple character compression, (as you rightly said), this plot would confuse and confound (and ultimately piss-off) the audience. I'm not lamenting that he was left out, but they completely ignored the fact that Elrond's ring (you know, what the movies are about?), brought the flood, with Gandalf throwing in grinding boulders and white foamy horses. Strider and the hobbits brought up the rear with flaming brands as to trap the nazgul between fire and the rushing water. These 'true-to-the-book' scenes would have been cake to include, been more dramatic, and a better intro into elvish 'magic', instead of having to beef up a role that wasn't there to begin with.

I don't agree about Aragorn second-guessing himself much. At least not to the point of seeming incompetent. He safely guided and protected the hobbits on perhaps their most vunerable portion of the quest. He faught off the nazgul at Weathertop, found the the Athelas, and tended Frodo's wounds. He seemed extremely capable and wise imho - he only got better as his task became more defined.

[Billadillo]

Well put Lelondul!

I have to say, find your take on things interesting coolismo....

I still don't understand why Arwen's tears over her little scratch are impersonal tears of redemption...could you explain?

But more importantly, I strongly disagree that Arwen in any way strengthens Aragorn's character!

- She sneaks up on him in the woods, while he's bumbling about, searching for athelas. I'm sure, being part elf, she COULD do it...but why WOULD she do it? Putting it in there only makes him look less competent. Not quite the master woodsman, eh?

- In the book, the only reason Frodo made it from Weathertop to Rivendell was Aragorn's healing w/athelas. In the movie, he only thinks of it in desperation after it's clear Frodo isn't going to make it. Not quite the master of herb-lore, eh? Then who rides in at the nick of time to save Frodo? None other than Arwen super-elf!

- In Rivendell, Aragorn has some sort of identity crisis...not wanting to accept his kingship? I thought that was a pretty lame choice by PJ, making him look weak and unsure. But who is there to talk him up? Why, it's Arwen of course!

- To make matters worse, I've heard rumors that Arwen will be the one to bring him Narsil later in the story. Silly Aragorn...running off to fulfill his destiny without reforging the sword that represents everything he is. Good thing Arwen will be there to save his butt...again.

I think of Aragorn from the book as the prototypcial ranger. He should be stoic, noble, kind, wise, fierce, humble yet confident....with the dignity and majesty of the greatest of kings hidden behind a veil of mystery. Compared that, the movie Aragorn looks like a weenie.

Well, maybe not a total weenie. He still fights like a banshee...and all the ladies seem to think he's pretty good looking. But I still think he lost ALOT of depth in the movie, mostly at the hands of Arwen.

*pant* *pant*

my rant is done...for now

[Gerbil]

I'd be very wary of bandying phrases like:

'Anyone who has read the books cannot possibly like the treament given Arwen and the flight to the ford scene.'

Why? Because you are absolutely wrong. People all have different opinions of stuff and are perfectly entitled to them.
As far as the film went, it was OK. Not brilliant, but it'll do.
As far as the Tolkien buff in me felt, it blew chunks. But I can live with it.

[jerseydevil]

Billadillo - my thoughts exactly. Sounds like something I wrote.

I've complained about how Frodo also never gets to resist the Nazgul too - which takes away so much from his character and why Gandalf thinks HE should be the one to carry the Ring to Mordor (besides many other reasons of course).

[coolismo]

It just hinted for me that Arwen would take the wound from Frodo if she could, redeem it from him or pay it off herself if she could. There she is with her tears streaming down her torn cheek while Frodo gasps, having been laid down on the bank. We have seen Arwen's skill and strength and she has all the horsemanship of a Joan of Arc. Then it seems as though she can command the river to blow the riders away but might seem helpless to stem the onrush of her tears. It just made a moving image after all that rushing horsey waves and, since there was no need of a cliffhanger, worked kinda well.

[Lelondul]

I'll bandy my opinions about as I wish fell rodent! *raises sword to Gerbil*. Indeed with all the recklessness of Aragorn (the movie-Aragorn anyway) shall I proclaim how you all feel about the film!

If you are one to argue such fact as 'opinion' than so be it, the road will be hard and frought with peril

[coolismo]

just an aside....
Funny thing there, Viggo added a personal message in the movie. In the scene where Arwen left with Frodo, he said to her: "Min Älskling", which was probably not in the original script, because it means "my love" in Danish!

[Gerbil]

[QUOTE]I'll bandy my opinions about as I wish fell rodent![QUOTE]
Errr yes, that was kind of the point of my post.

*raises sword to Gerbil*.

RAISES your sword to Gerbil? How tall are you? An inch? I'm only a rodent

If you are one to argue such fact as 'opinion' than so be it, the road will be hard and frought with peril

Go back and read your post and you'll see why my next job is to label you a hypocrit

[coolismo]

I like the scene because its a preface for the death of Boromir. We see again Aragorn with his own wound on his arm crying impersonal tears at Boromirs demise. Aragorn then redeems Boromir after his death as his captain (he persues the orcs) and his king (he dons the gloves and we see them with the ring of barathingywotsit). Ok maybe I'm reading into it but he is Estel and hopefully this might help you to like Arwen a bitty more.

c lism

[jerseydevil]

Sorry - doesn't help me hate Jackson's changes with Arwen any less. I don't mind her having more screen - he just went way overboard.

[Wayfarer]

Gerbil... be careful. Lelondul is into swans... but you never know...

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by coolismo
The book is undoubtedly superior to the movie, no question i'd rather have pipeweed and the book than popcorn and the movie everytime.
Look the Nazgul are already weakened as a threat in the movie. They are worse at combat than even the orcs. Alright we lose Glorfindel and maybe we reckon Frodo not to be as brave as we read it in the book. But the scene in no way weakens our beloved king. Surely it strengthens him because we see him accepting the troth of a strong woman (brrrrrrr) moments later. BTW liv tyler seems to gain/lose about 10 pounds through the movie, maybe they did beef up her role.

i was going to refer to the part about the Nazgul, but the computer doesn't seem to want to cooperate, so i'll have to quote the whole thing.
but anyways, i didn't think that the Nazgul would need to be good fighters.. i mean they have the whole, your-so-afraid-of-me thing and everyone runs away.
i dunno, im not an expert like you guys(and girls) and i am relativley new to the whole tolkein world (one year).. so correct me if im wrong.. my ADD sometimes gets a tidbit in the way

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Gerbil... be careful. Lelondul is into swans... but you never know...

Uh-oh, I'm trapped either way - look at my profile and note my surname